Evidence of meeting #13 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was community.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Spratt  Partner, AGP LLP Criminal Trial and Appeal Lawyers, As an Individual
Jennifer Dunn  Executive Director, London Abused Women's Centre
Mark Arcand  Tribal Chief, Saskatoon Tribal Council
André Gélinas  As an Individual
Raphael Tachie  President, Canadian Association of Black Lawyers
Sandra Ka Hon Chu  Co-Executive Director, HIV Legal Network
Jacqueline Beckles  Secretary, Canadian Association of Black Lawyers
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Jean-François Pagé

1:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you, Mr. Spratt.

Thank you, Monsieur Fortin.

Now we'll go to Mr. Garrison for six minutes.

April 29th, 2022 / 1:40 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I do want to thank all the witnesses for being with us this morning—my time.

The government says that one of the purposes of Bill C-5 is to address the problem of systemic racism in the justice system, so I want to extend particular thanks to Chief Arcand for being with us to stress the importance of indigenous voices and hearing indigenous voices in our considerations.

I want to thank you for bringing our attention to the facts about over-incarceration and the very shocking figures that you've cited from your community. Obviously it's an injustice, but could you tell us a bit more about the impacts of over-incarceration in terms of the connections to family, connections to community and connections to culture that result from this over-incarceration?

1:40 p.m.

Tribal Chief, Saskatoon Tribal Council

Chief Mark Arcand

Thank you very much for the question, Randall. I think this is probably the most important question. I was hoping somebody was going to ask it.

When everybody talks about MMPs, I'm going to be honest. It doesn't matter which government it is. For what happened to indigenous people through residential schools and everything else, through the federal government, through the churches, through everything, who is holding them accountable? The people we're talking about right now are the indigenous people who are being incarcerated through that system, and there are no MMPs and no accountability to that structure whatsoever.

I challenge the governments on this, both governments, and say, what is the responsibility? You look at the indigenous people and at what has been caused by all of these effects of what we just talked about, incarceration, breaking up families. Yes, I hear the questions about armed robberies. Those are severe, but what are the symptoms to that? Why are people doing those things? It's because of the way they've been treated by these systems imposed by government where there is no accountability of the federal government, of the churches. Nobody is being held accountable for the murders of those families, for taking our children away. We're wondering why mom and dad are so messed up because their children have been taken from their arms. There is no accountability. Let's be honest and start talking the truth here about how it destroyed the indigenous people of this country. Nobody is addressing that.

That's racism. That's systemic racism. People have to be challenged. It is the right thing to do, because when we talk about everything, this is why we have so many people incarcerated. Our families are destroyed. When you talk about people going to jail through MMPs, where is the rehabilitation? Show us the statistics on how many people, indigenous people, have been rehabilitated once they leave those MMPs.

The answer is probably a minimum. Right now, through the work that I do in the city of Saskatoon in the correctional system, we are trying to prevent people from going to federal prison by rehabilitation through education, through family unification, through employment, to get them a different way of doing things.

I want to thank you, Randall, for that question, because it's a very important question. There has to be some accountability here, because we're dealing with a crisis of indigenous people who are incarcerated—especially the women. The women are being abused every day, and if you don't know a woman who has been in an abusive relationship, they don't want to speak the truth because they are afraid. Nobody is helping them. Where is the rehabilitation for that? They are led to violent crimes because they are protecting themselves and that's all defence.

Thank you for that question, Mr. Garrison.

1:40 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Thank you, Chief Arcand.

Would it be fair to say what you're really telling us is that over-incarceration is the result of the residential school system and other pieces of systemic racism in society, but it also extends those impacts to another generation?

1:40 p.m.

Tribal Chief, Saskatoon Tribal Council

Chief Mark Arcand

Absolutely, 1,000% I agree with you because it's the trauma that's been affected. When you see people who have been taken away from your arms, and you have the RCMP back in the day supporting this and saying, “If you don't give us your children, we're going to send you to jail.” There is no accountability. That's exactly what I'm talking about.

I only have six minutes to address this. It's a lot to say, but that leads to all this destruction. We talk about gang violence. Why are people in those situations? We talk about all these severe crimes. It's because of the impacts of residential schools. It has destroyed families. It's a really bad situation and now, as leaders, as communities, we're creating partnerships and relationships to deal with the trauma from all of these systemic racist situations. I say we have to change the systems in order to negate trauma and get treatment for people. We lack treatment facilities. If somebody is getting caught with drugs, why are we sending them to prison to be recruited? Why can't we send them to a treatment facility to deal with the underlying issues?

Nobody is addressing that. Maybe that person has ADHD or FASD. Those things have never been addressed. This is what I'm working on to actually address those situations, because we need to heal people. We don't wake up every day as indigenous people and say we're going to go kill somebody. That's not our thing. There are situations that happen to our people. They see violence every day. They see their mothers, their fathers; they see all of that domestic violence. The system has to change and we need this type of MMPs to be addressed.

1:45 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Thank you once again, Chief Arcand.

Perhaps I could ask you very specifically about one of the things we pass over too quickly, and that is after being over-incarcerated, those who get out have criminal records. Could you talk about the obstacles that presents for people in terms of housing, employment and rehabilitation while having a criminal record?

1:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Respond very quickly, Chief Arcand.

1:45 p.m.

Tribal Chief, Saskatoon Tribal Council

Chief Mark Arcand

Thank you.

Randall, I wish that you and I could have a conversation, because we're on the same page.

Every day I deal with people who can't get jobs because of their criminal record. People aren't understanding why they made these choices. Now we try to rehabilitate them. When they get into the system of incarceration, there is no rehabilitation. It's more of a punishment—

1:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you, Chief. Hopefully you'll be able to explore this in the next questions.

We're going into the next rounds, which are five minutes.

We'll go to Mr. Barrett for five minutes.

1:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

It will be Mr. Cooper, please, Mr. Chair.

1:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will direct my questions to Ms. Dunn.

It has been asserted by this government, as well as other witnesses who appeared before our committee, specifically The Canadian Bar Association, that all the expansion of conditional sentencing orders will do is allow so-called non-violent offenders to serve time in the community rather than behind bars.

What do you say to that?

1:45 p.m.

Executive Director, London Abused Women's Centre

Jennifer Dunn

First of all, I don't particularly understand how an individual charged with trafficking for material benefit or an individual who is charged with sexual assault could be considered non-violent. It doesn't make sense to me.

Sexual assault and trafficking are public safety issues just by the nature of what they are. When you have individuals in the same communities as one another, especially if you think about the indigenous or Black communities where police response time is already a cause for concern, it's a very big red flag. It's not fair to the women and girls who we provide service to. It's not fair to women and girls who have not yet sought out our service.

1:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Thank you for that.

You mentioned that, in terms of your centre, many women who are at risk seek help and are afraid as a result of a violent offender or someone who poses a risk to them being out in the community on a conditional sentencing order. However, under the Criminal Code, a judge must be satisfied that there isn't any public safety concern.

How do you square that in terms of what the law provides for and what is happening in reality?

1:50 p.m.

Executive Director, London Abused Women's Centre

Jennifer Dunn

Thank you again.

This is way bigger than today. It's much bigger than this bill by itself.

I think we need to talk about the issues and the systemic change that needs to happen before this hits the court and before we're talking about it in this situation here today.

We need to talk about public awareness and education for children, boys and girls, as young as.... Goodness, I have twins who are seven years old and I talk to them all the time about how to treat other people. It needs to start that young.

We need to look at what is best for all and at the systemic change that needs to take place before it gets to the point that we're talking about today.

1:50 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

I appreciate that. I think that is absolutely valid, but we have before us a very specific piece of legislation that we are studying, which expands conditional sentencing orders for, as you appropriately noted, some very violent offences that surely are perpetrated by violent people.

Based upon your experience on the front lines, is it your view that this legislation is actually going to put vulnerable women at even greater risk?

1:50 p.m.

Executive Director, London Abused Women's Centre

Jennifer Dunn

I think that Bill C-5 needs to be broken down a little bit more.

I do believe that changing the conditional sentencing does put women at greater risk. It puts them in harm's way. It puts them in the communities where the offenders are going to be. Just because somebody is convicted of a crime doesn't mean it's going to stop the violence from happening.

1:50 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

1:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

You have 30 seconds.

1:50 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

I will just ask you, Ms. Dunn, if you have any concerns with the rolling back of the mandatory jail sentences relating to some very serious firearms offences. You seemed, in your testimony, to indicate some level of support, but I find that a bit confusing in light of some of the other testimony that you have provided.

1:50 p.m.

Executive Director, London Abused Women's Centre

Jennifer Dunn

Yes, I understand how that would be confusing.

What we would present is that the committee needs to look at this with a lens of violence against women—

1:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Unfortunately, Ms. Dunn, we're over time. Hopefully you can expand on that in the next question.

Next, for five minutes, we have Madam Diab.

1:50 p.m.

Liberal

Lena Metlege Diab Liberal Halifax West, NS

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to all of the witnesses.

Chief Arcand, let me go back to you. You were interrupted because of time in the last questions. I really appreciated it when you said that we need to heal people. You ended with people who have criminal records coming to you.

Could you go back to those two in light of the mandatory minimum sentences and in light of the non-discretionary effects that they have on judges in sentencing indigenous people and, quite frankly, all people? Regardless of....

We have it on the record that offences that carry more than two years would still carry two years plus. The discretion of the judge is still there. They can give people way more than two years or more than the minimum mandatory sentences. Could you go back to where you were trying to take us?

1:50 p.m.

Tribal Chief, Saskatoon Tribal Council

Chief Mark Arcand

Thank you for that question.

This is real stuff. For people who don't understand and who don't do this work every day, seeing the rehabilitation of the trauma enforced, it's all because of a system of systemic racism that has been dealt to indigenous people.

There are two key cases that highlight when we talk about fairness between a non-indigenous person and an indigenous person when we're going through the court system.

Colten Boushie was killed by a non-indigenous farmer. What happened to him? He was acquitted by an all-white jury. Even the first nations people couldn't become jurors. It's a system that has to change. Yes, we're doing our best to do that, but why does it cost the life of an indigenous person?

Look at the Neil Stonechild inquiry of the Saskatoon city police back in the day, 20 years ago. We are being targeted as indigenous people.

Those sentences should be carried as life sentences, but because they have the money and the power, they are not carried out. However, if you look at an indigenous person who gets charged, they're sent to jail, sent to prison, because they can't afford the best lawyer. They can't pay for this kind of stuff.

Michael Spratt hit the nail on the head. This is the reality. Where is the fairness in justice? When you talk about rehabilitation, the reason our people are committing these crimes as indigenous people is that they've been tortured and traumatized by a system. That system was residential schools and it leads to incarceration.

I say this honestly and openly. When you haven't dealt with people sitting in an office like we are, being out there inside that correctional centre and at the federal prison, and talking to these individuals who are saying they want to change because they don't like this life.... They're not waking up and doing this every day. It's because they have been traumatized and nobody's supporting their trauma to stop them from doing this.

Imagine if we took the 80% away from the incarceration system. There would be no work for CSOs inside the facilities. Take out 98% of female youth. We wouldn't have a female youth jail.

Doesn't that make sense to anybody?

1:55 p.m.

Liberal

Lena Metlege Diab Liberal Halifax West, NS

Chief, thank you. I hear you.

I have a question for you, Mr. Spratt. If we have time, I'll also ask the chief the same question. It is in regard to the faint hope clause.

Would you recommend or support reinstituting that, or would you suggest any changes from the previous faint hope clause that was repealed by the previous government?

Could you give us a bit of insight on that?

1:55 p.m.

Partner, AGP LLP Criminal Trial and Appeal Lawyers, As an Individual

Michael Spratt

Yes, it's something that most definitely should be reinstituted. The weight of the legal community—academics, scholars and people who practised—recognized the importance of that clause, as did the Supreme Court in finding the parole eligibility periods for murder constitutional.

It is a faint hope, but hope is important. When governments take the perspective that we need to build more jails, lock people up for longer and throw away the key, it is a damning admission of failure. It is something that I would urge the government to readdress.