No.
Evidence of meeting #48 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was extradition.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #48 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was extradition.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:10 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Mr. McSorley, I will put the same question to you.
Have you held any discussions with foreign authorities or with lawyers from other countries that are working on extradition cases about the conditions or the amendments proposed by Mr. Bayne?
5:10 p.m.
National Coordinator, International Civil Liberties Monitoring Group
Unfortunately, we haven't had any discussions with either of those stakeholders from other countries.
5:10 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Alright.
I understand that these conditions seem quite sensible at first blush, but they are not necessarily acceptable to foreign states.
5:10 p.m.
National Coordinator, International Civil Liberties Monitoring Group
It is possible.
I would say then that it is incumbent upon Canada to ensure that its citizens are protected and it is important that our laws reflect this.
If for example, the French counterterrorism system is not sufficient in our eyes in terms of protecting human rights and civil liberties, then it is up to us to guarantee that protection.
5:10 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you.
Do you know of other states that apply these conditions?
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
Thank you, Mr. Fortin. Unfortunately, time is up. We're actually a little over.
Next we'll go to Mr. Garrison for six minutes.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I too thank the witnesses, not just for being here today but also for their long-time advocacy on this issue. It has, of course, taken our committee some time to get to this study. I'm hoping—and I trust you can see it around the table—that there's good engagement on this issue by all committee members so that we can get a good report completed soon.
I'm going to start with Mr. McSorley.
In your fifth key point, you talked about the review of treaties. I presume you're talking about a review not just of the treaties but also of the human rights records and performance of our treaty partners.
Is that correct?
5:10 p.m.
National Coordinator, International Civil Liberties Monitoring Group
Yes, that's correct.
There should be a comprehensive review, immediately, of all treaty partners, and then ongoing review to see changes in their laws. We looked particularly at where some of those countries are at in terms of their counterterrorism laws and found that they're lacking.
That could perhaps provide a starting point. In general, that should be done.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
I think someone suggested we shouldn't have treaties with those who haven't signed the convention against torture, but what you're saying to us is that this not sufficient. Merely signing the convention against torture wouldn't qualify someone to have a treaty with us.
5:10 p.m.
National Coordinator, International Civil Liberties Monitoring Group
Yes, exactly.
We would hope a country that has signed the convention against torture would respect its obligations, but, as we know, there are multiple countries, including.... There have been questions about whether Canada fully respects its obligations to that convention, as well, so we think there needs to be further review, instead of just accepting it at face value.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
You mentioned there were 10 countries with whom, I presume, we have treaties. You cited them as frequent violators of rights in this context. Can you speak a bit about the context, or that idea of frequent violators, and perhaps say what the 10 countries are, if you have that?
5:10 p.m.
National Coordinator, International Civil Liberties Monitoring Group
Certainly. I have a list, but unfortunately the highlighting didn't print out, so I can't say the 10 exactly. I might be able to identify some of them. You may be surprised to hear the countries that are included. Off the top of my head, I know that France is included and Austria is included. I'm trying to identify some. I'll send the list to the committee, because I have it.
What was identified, and I think it's important, is that in the current context, there are multiple countries that have been cited by the UN for expanding counterterrorism laws that violate human rights, often in the pursuit of their critics. We have seen some countries that have more populist governments bringing in these kinds of laws in order to, as I said, silence critics and target minorities.
There's a rise that we've been seeing that is perhaps.... For a period after 9/11, there was a rise in these types of laws, and then a decrease. In the last few years, we've seen a new increase in countries that wouldn't necessarily, at first glance, be on our list of countries whose counterterrorism laws we would have to be worried about, but they are bringing in new laws that engage in indefinite detention, that allow for the use of intelligence and unsourced information and that engage in activities that would be considered tantamount to torture.
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you.
Mr. Bayne, you were very clear in outlining four key changes to the law, but I want to ask you something that we've heard a bit more about, which is the role of the international assistance group in the Department of Justice. We have heard some testimony questioning whether one part of a department can be an advocate for the country that's making the request while, at the same time, another part of that same group is supposed to be defending the rights of those who have the extradition request against them.
Can you speak to that question, based on your experience?
5:15 p.m.
As an Individual
I think it's not only an apparent conflict of interest; it's a real conflict of interest.
That's not all that the IAG does. When you come to the ministerial stage, the minister turns to the same people who were very ardent and aggressive advocates in the courtroom for advice on whether, ministerially, he should surrender the fugitive. There's clearly a bias there too.
It's been recommended. It's not among my four, because I didn't come with a vast shopping list, but the truth is that it puts those people, however well-meaning.... It would put any of us in an apparent conflict of interest, and likely a real one.
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
The other thing we've heard a lot about is the number of things that are assigned to the minister at the surrender phase that might be better considered by the judge in the extradition hearing.
Can you comment on the kinds of things we're leaving to the minister as a political decision that are actually legal decisions?
5:15 p.m.
As an Individual
At the end of the day, it's virtually everything.
If you examine the role of the judge—and the judges have at least privately, if not publicly, lamented this—you see that they are rubber stamps. They don't have a judicial function. They don't weigh the evidence. They don't make determinations of reliability.
I know of very few ministerial decisions—perhaps one or two—in which the minister declined to surrender after a decision was made on extradition. Maybe I'm being too general in that answer.
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
No, that's exactly what I was getting at. Judges aren't really allowed to judge in the extradition cases.
5:15 p.m.
As an Individual
Interestingly enough, more than a decade ago, two decades ago, that's exactly what—
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
I'm going to have to intercept you there, Mr. Bayne. Hopefully one of the other witnesses will give you a bit of time on that.
I have to go to the next round of five minutes, and that's going to Mr. Caputo.
February 8th, 2023 / 5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Thank you.
Go ahead, Mr. Bayne. Finish up, please.
5:15 p.m.
As an Individual
Anne Warner La Forest questioned why Canada even has judges involved in the process when so little is given to the judge to do. She was very prescient about how we were going off the rails with this act, and as I say, it's only gotten worse because the judges sit there....
There's a culture now, a judicial culture, that has grown up that extradition is inevitable. We will go through the charade of a hearing, but in the end, it will always happen. The judge, no matter.... We witnessed Justice Maranger wringing his hands about the nature of this material they were putting in front of him, but he couldn't do anything about it. He said, at one point, “You know what I would do, Mr. Bayne, if this was a trial in Canada.”
The judges are so overawed by the concept of international relations and the idea that they're not supposed to tread on damaging relations with France or somebody else if they refuse this request. They really have no role. They don't make legal decisions.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Well, that's.... I'm a bit of a nerd, so I'm going to ask you a question about this.
Something I find interesting—and I apologize if you've covered this point—is the tension between what is a legal decision and what is a political decision. That's something that I don't think we often turn our minds to.
I'd like you to comment on something, whether this is the case. In some countries, as I understand it, you have the attorney general, who is your legal officer. Then you have a minister of justice, which is a political position, so there's going to be some partisanship there.
Does having those two titles reside in the same person impact extradition at all?
5:20 p.m.
As an Individual
That sounds like a dangerous invitation to go down a debate that was held in this country not long ago. I don't think I'm the person qualified to resolve that. I think you people are.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
I'm just asking for your opinion. I certainly don't know.