Justice Committee on Nov. 6th, 2025

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

I'm going to move a motion; just give me two minutes.

I move, Mr. Chair, to now hear from the witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

That is immediately votable.

(Motion agreed to)

The motion is carried.

Please go ahead, Monsieur Fortin.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order. I spoke about it earlier and I’m doing it again.

We did not receive a notice of meeting concerning this group of witnesses. With all due respect for the witnesses, we must work seriously with them. This is not a joke. They are here to do an important job. I think we need to be properly prepared.

You told me earlier that you were surprising me. Thank you, but it’s not my birthday. I don’t need that kind of surprise. I do not agree to doing things without a notice of meeting.

I therefore rise on a point of order, Mr. Chair. The committee cannot meet without a notice of meeting. I believe it must be sent 24 or 48 hours in advance. It can’t be decided on the fly like that at the beginning of the meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

You are not wrong, in part. The notice of meeting is a practice. However, as we have adopted this motion, we will resume the session where it was supposed to be today, namely with the testimonies as part of the ongoing study. For this reason, we will continue—

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Mr. Chair, I have a notice of meeting, received by all members of the committee on November 14 at 4:46 p.m., informing me that the committee is resuming Meeting 12 today, which was suspended. Don’t tell me that we were supposed to receive these witnesses today. That’s not what we read in the notice of meeting.

I don’t know where the idea comes from that we need to hear the testimony of these witnesses. I believe it was discussed, probably in good faith, among colleagues at the table who thought it useful to hear from these witnesses. These witnesses are important people who deserve to be heard.

However, I regret to inform you that we have a way of doing things. It can’t be chaos. We need to do things with a minimum of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

I completely understand your point about collegiality. However, we have just adopted Ms. Lattanzio’s motion. As a result, we will hear the testimony of the witnesses. They have been waiting patiently for a good half hour.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

You are telling me that we will hear the testimony of these witnesses based on a motion that was proposed on this matter, even though it was not related to the topic for which we were convened, Mr. Chair.

I am appealing this decision.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Shall the chair's ruling be sustained?

(Ruling of the chair sustained)

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Thank you, Mr. Fortin

We will now move on to the testimony.

We will start first with Mayor Brown, who is here in person.

Mr. Brown, you have five minutes.

The other witnesses, by group, will also have five minutes.

Thank you, Mr. Brown. I'll turn the floor over to you.

[Patrick Brown, Mayor, City of Brampton]

It's an honour to be here at the justice committee. I once sat on this committee as a parliamentarian. I know the important work that you undertake. I'm heartened to hear that you are having this extensive look at bail reform in our country. We have a bail system in Canada that is tragically broken, and it is very encouraging to hear that it is being addressed with the attention that it deserves.

I represent a city where I believe public safety is the number one issue—in Brampton and in Peel region. I see that through my responsibilities not only as mayor of the city but also as a member of the Peel Police Services Board. For the last five years, we've had a campaign for bail reform. We launched a petition, and we have had it as our number one advocacy point in Ottawa.

What started this campaign was the tragedy of Darian Henderson-Bellman, who lost her life to five shots from her former intimate partner. This individual was released on bail five times. It was a preventable tragedy.

More recently—and I say tragically—every few months we hear about another example of this. After Darian Henderson-Bellman, we said that never again would a preventable tragedy like this happen, but that hasn't been the case.

Just a few weeks ago, we paid witness to the tragedy of Savannah Kulla. Savannah Kulla had her life taken by a former intimate partner who had a history of violence and firearms offences. The fact that he was released to take her life is a tragedy that shook our community, and it's why I believe that the bail reform presented is so necessary for the country. We have the same criminals committing the same crimes again and again. It has become a revolving door.

We even had one instance in Peel region that the chief of police told me about where someone was released for stealing a car, and then they stole a car from the parking lot of the courthouse in Brampton. On talk radio, they were laughing about it, but it's no laughing matter for those whose security has been pierced.

I wanted to share some statistics with you. I did some research in advance of this testimony.

In Peel region, 66% of those who have firearms offences had been released on bail. Two-thirds of individuals who committed firearms offences were released. Someone who commits an offence with a firearm should not be released. These are people who have terrorized the community, and the seriousness of a firearm offence should be treated as such.

I also wanted to note that I understand that it's not simply the Criminal Code. We have serious challenges to correctional capacity and judicial resources. I wanted to put that on the record as well. We are short Crowns. We're short interpreters. Too often at Maplehurst, our local correctional facility, the inn is full. There is no capacity to send additional inmates. Almost every case in Peel region is given additional credit when it comes to sentencing, because of the challenges of the system.

My plea today, on behalf of my residents, is that this robust bill legislation needs to be passed. Whether there are amendments that are required to strengthen it, I don't believe public safety should be a partisan issue. Let's make sure this bill is as strong as possible and that we give residents in Peel region and, frankly, Canadians across the country the peace of mind they deserve.

In talking to frontline officers, you know how frustrating it is for them to have their hard work wasted when an individual they've spent hundreds of hours on is released. I look at Project 24Karat, where we had this massive expense for the Peel police in the largest gold heist in Canadian history. Everyone who was charged in Canada was released. The individual who was charged in the U.S. is still in custody. There are too many examples like that.

I wish this legislation could be adopted immediately in the House of Commons so we don't see any more of that frustration, that anger that I hear from police, who see their time wasted.

Frankly, I hate getting the phone calls from parents who lose a loved one. Savannah Kulla's father called me, saying that he saw the Darian Henderson-Bellman tragedy on the news, and he said, “I hope this never happens to my family.”

I spoke to Darian Henderson-Bellman's parents as well. They spoke at our Peel Regional Police victim symposium, which we hosted for the first time this year, to really amplify the need for bail reform. Talking to parents who have lost a loved one when that loss should never have happened is tough.

I want to thank you for giving me the opportunity to say a few words. Thank you for paying attention to a topic that is so critical to Canadians.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Thank you, Mayor Brown.

We now have the Deputy Chief of Police of the Toronto Police Service, Robert Johnson.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Robert Johnson, Deputy Chief of Police, Toronto Police Service]

Thank you, Chair.

Members of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, thank you for the invitation today.

The Toronto Police Service has long advocated for reforms that put public safety first, including bail reforms and reverse onus provisions that properly address serious violent offences, repeat violent offenders, firearms offences, organized crime and intimate partner violence. We support the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police submissions made to the committee on October 28.

I'd like to offer some context on what we are currently facing here in Toronto.

Policing in the biggest city in Canada is complex, and we consistently have to adapt. Over the past decade, there has been a general increase in the volume of shootings and firearm discharges. Although we have seen more recent declines, particularly over the last five years, the longer-term trend remains concerning and is the focus of our planning and resource allocation.

Auto thefts have decreased since 2023. However, we have seen a steady upward trend over the past decade. Home invasions are down as well, compared with last year, but this follows a notable increase in recent years of upwards of 400%.

We believe that the bail and sentencing reform act, introduced last month by the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, is a step in the right direction to protect the public and deter criminal activity, to rebuild public trust in the justice system and to strengthen morale among police officers. For example, the proposed amendment to modify the tertiary grounds for the denial of bail to require courts to consider the number or seriousness of any outstanding charges is warranted.

Despite crime indicators trending in the right direction this year in Toronto, certain high-profile cases involving reoffenders committing violent crimes while out on bail continue to undermine public trust. For our frontline officers, as Mayor Brown mentioned, when they keep arresting the same individuals over and over again, they feel their work doesn't make a difference.

Recently in Toronto, we arrested three individuals who were all under 18 at the time of the crime in August. This was for the murder of an eight-year-old who was struck by a stray bullet in his bedroom. While there has been a slight decline this year, we continue to see more young people becoming involved in gun-related activity. With a clear rise over the past several years, this increase reflects a troubling shift in both accessibility and attitudes toward firearms among youths. This is a serious challenge that requires a whole-of-society effort.

In a densely populated city like Toronto, shootings in public spaces are not only incredibly dangerous; they can also cause lasting trauma and uncertainty for survivors, families and entire communities. Therefore, we continue to argue that when someone is shot and killed in a congregate setting, such offences should be classified as first-degree murder under section 231 of the Criminal Code. This amendment would act as a strong deterrent to perpetrators and recognize society's condemnation of such reckless acts.

In closing, I would like to note that the overwhelming majority of crime guns seized and sourced by Toronto police come from the United States, ranging from 73% to 89%, in the past five years. I note that we are only able to speak to the guns that can be traced. In all likelihood, the total number of crime guns from the U.S. is probably a lot higher.

This highlights the importance of strengthening collaboration with other law enforcement agencies and for enhanced financial support and resources for policing. It also highlights that meaningful and lasting progress requires a whole-of-system approach. For example, modernizing lawful access provisions and strengthening legislation to help prevent the movement of contraband, firearms and dangerous drugs is also essential.

The Toronto Police Service looks forward to continuing our work with all levels of government to ensure that the justice system upholds accountability and protects our communities.

Thank you for your time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Thank you, Chief Johnson.

Unfortunately, colleagues, because of the time constraints, we'll have a chance for only one full round for this panel. I do hope it will be a productive one. Then we'll go into the second round of witnesses.

We will start off with Mr. Baber, followed by Ms. Lattanzio.

It will be Mr. Fortin’s turn next.

Each member will have six minutes.

You have the floor, Mr. Baber.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Welcome, Deputy Chief Johnson.

I want to begin by thanking the Toronto Police Service, the chief and the frontline officers. My constituents are protected by 31 Division and 32 Division in North York. I thank you for your service.

I came to Canada 30 years ago, directly to Sheppard and Bathurst, where I'm now pleased to be the sitting member of Parliament. Last Sunday, just like the Sunday before, a group of thugs went into a residential neighbourhood, marched up Hove Street and turned onto Codsell Avenue, scaring and intimidating the local residents primarily making up Toronto's Jewish community.

Is that acceptable behaviour, in your view?

[Robert Johnson]

It's a complicated situation, for sure. What I can tell you is that our officers are there observing, and will lay charges when we feel the Criminal Code has been breached.

It's upsetting for the neighbourhood. We are aware of that. We're trying to do everything we can in partnership with the municipal government and bylaws that have been enacted in the area—

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

I apologize. My time is very short. What do you think is the intent of this crowd when they walk up Hove Street into a residential neighbourhood?

[Robert Johnson]

Well, they're pushing the line, for sure. They're trying to annoy residents. The issue that we have to deal with is whether this is criminal activity.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

I submit to you, respectfully, that their intent is to intimidate local residents, and they do so successfully. My constituents are frightened.

They chant. They yell at neighbours. You would agree with me that local residents would rightfully be scared when they see that. Would you agree with that or not?

[Robert Johnson]

One hundred per cent, but that does not reach the criminal threshold of harassment—

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

But would you not agree with me that the intent of that crowd is to intimidate the residents they're passing?

[Robert Johnson]

I would agree with you that it disturbs residents of the area, 100%. The issue is that we have to have evidence of a criminal offence before we can lay a charge of intimidation. The advice we've been given, our legal advice, is that the current activity that is occurring there does not reach the threshold.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Officer, if you agree with me that the net result is intimidation—I think you'd agree with me that the intent is intimidation—then that is no longer protected charter expression. I believe it is mischief, at the very least. I'm asking Toronto police to respect Toronto's residents and the residents of Bathurst Manor and protect them appropriately. We cannot have thugs walking through local neighbourhoods terrorizing the neighbours.

[Robert Johnson]

The devil is in the details they use. Again, I'll reiterate that our advice is that this is not criminal intimidation. It is disturbing to the neighbours and the neighbourhood, for sure. We are there to make sure that public safety is upheld.

When we find evidence of a criminal offence, we lay charges. We have a track record of that. We have laid, I think, 768.... I'm sorry. It's almost—

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

I'm sorry, Deputy Chief. I submit to you that it is a criminal offence, and I'm going to cede the rest of my time to the member for Brampton West.

[Amarjeet Gill, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mayor Brown, for coming here. Do you believe we must ensure that the proposed Liberal bail reform should be properly amended and strengthened to avoid any leak from government oversight?