Evidence of meeting #17 for Justice and Human Rights in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-14.
A recording is available from Parliament.
The Clerk
Okay, that's perfect.
The motion as amended would be, “That, at the conclusion of the clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-14, the committee return to clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-9 as agreed to on January 26, 2026, and that the committee begin consideration of Bill C-16 at the next meeting following the completion of clause-by-clause on Bill C-9.”
Liberal
The Chair Liberal James Maloney
Thank you, Mr. Clerk.
I don't think we need to start over again. Everybody understands what they're voting on.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Mr. Chair, there is an issue with interpretation. I rarely listen to the interpretation; I usually listen to the floor audio. However, the interpreter said something other than what—
Liberal
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Mr. Chair, with all due respect, I believe the interpreter made a mistake. What I heard in French is not what the French version I have here says, where the motion proposes at the end that the committee undertake the study of Bill C‑16 at the following meeting, after the completion of the clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C‑9.
Is that what we're voting on?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal James Maloney
Just so we're clear, everybody, why don't we start the vote over again so that there's no misunderstanding? I don't want anybody uncertain at the conclusion of this.
(Motion as amended agreed to: yeas 5; nays 4)
The next line in my script says that we're starting the second hour of the meeting. I'll skip that part.
I want to ask the committee members to not speak unless they have the floor.
I want to thank our witnesses. I can't stress enough how grateful we are for your patience in sitting here and waiting to testify. It's important to us, and we know it's important to you that you're here. Please accept our appreciation on behalf of the entire committee.
Our witnesses are, from the International Downtown Association of Canada, Paul MacKinnon, chairperson; and from the Retail Council of Canada, Matt Poirier, vice-president, federal government relations.
Gentlemen, thank you again.
Mr. Poirier, I'll start with you. You have up to five minutes.
Matt Poirier Vice-President, Federal Government Relations, Retail Council of Canada
Good evening, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to represent the Retail Council of Canada, the voice of retail in this country.
We represent over 54,000 storefronts of all sizes, from national chains to independent merchants. As an industry, we are the largest private sector employer in Canada, providing jobs to more than 2.3 million Canadians. That is one in eight working Canadians. We also contribute over $80 billion annually to Canada's GDP. Simply put, when retail is healthy, the Canadian economy is healthy.
Right now our sector is facing a crisis that is unique in the Canadian landscape. If you ask any retailer in this country what their number one issue is, they won't say it's inflation or supply chains, which are pretty big problems at the moment; they'll tell you it's retail crime. This is no longer just the cost of doing business. It is a full-blown national emergency for our sector. Data from Statistics Canada backs this up. Last year, while the overall crime severity index fell by 4% and property crimes dropped generally, police-reported shoplifting rose by 14%. It has increased now for four consecutive years. Retail is the glaring statistical exception in Canada's crime landscape.
Our industry estimates that the total impact of this crime is nearing the $9-billion mark annually. But the real story isn't just the value of goods stolen. It is the diversion of capital. Every dollar a retailer is forced to spend on security guards or a locking case is a dollar not being spent on productivity improvements. Those are the types of investments that would benefit the economy and Canadians alike. We are essentially forcing our businesses to invest in defence rather than growth. This results in a massive hidden tax on every Canadian consumer.
How big is that $9-billion hit to consumers from retail crime? It works out to $580 per household, and more still when the rising costs of additional security measures are added. The perpetrators also, I'll add, aren't Robin Hoods. They are hurting their neighbours economically, as well as store owners, with increasing violence, brazenness and gang activity.
We are here today because we want to move past describing the problem to implementing its solutions. Bill C-14, in our view, is a common-sense first step.
First, Bill C-14 addresses the revolving door. The expanded reverse onus provisions for repeat violent offenders directly target the prolific criminals responsible for a massive percentage of these incidents. When a retailer sees the same face back in their store, stealing 48 hours after an arrest, it demoralizes the staff and undermines public confidence. This bill gives the courts the tools to stop that cycle.
Second, it targets the business of crime. By making organized retail theft an explicit aggravating factor in sentencing, this legislation finally acknowledges that we aren't dealing with petty shoplifting. We are dealing with sophisticated criminal networks that sell stolen property for profit. Bill C-14 ensures that the punishment actually fits the organized nature of the offence.
Third and finally, it prioritizes worker safety. With the surge in retail violence since the pandemic, our 2.3 million workers need to know that the law is on their side. The focus on deterrence for repeat offenders sends a clear message: The safety of the person behind the counter is a national priority.
Looking beyond this bill, we see Bill C-14 as the foundation for a broader national strategy. To truly turn the tide, we will eventually need to complement this legislation with a national reporting portal to track organized rings across provincial lines and modernize information sharing between retailers and police forces. Of course, ensuring that our justice system and police forces are adequately funded to tackle these big challenges is vital.
Bill C-14 is the catalyst we've been waiting for. It is the solution that retailers, and the communities they serve, need. We urge this committee to support its swift passage.
Thank you.
Paul MacKinnon Chairperson, International Downtown Association Canada
Good evening.
Thank you to all the members of the committee for the opportunity to appear before you today.
My name is Paul MacKinnon. I am the chair of the International Downtown Association Canada, and I'm also the CEO of the Downtown Halifax Business Commission.
IDA Canada is a national coalition of more than 500 business improvement associations, BIAs. As such, we collectively represent hundreds of thousands of landlords and business owners, large and small, in downtowns and main streets across the country.
Our organization's clear mandate is to advocate on behalf of our members, but our broader goal is to ensure that our downtowns remain centres of commercial activity and innovation and also cultural hubs enjoyed by all citizens.
Canada's downtowns reflect our national character. They are the showroom of our cities. For that reason, IDA Canada believes that it is important to speak to this committee today about an issue that is increasingly affecting downtowns and urban cores across the country, and that is crime.
While crime is certainly not exclusive to downtowns, its impacts are most visible and felt most acutely on our main streets, not just in large cities but increasingly in small towns and increasingly from coast to coast from Vancouver, British Columbia to Thunder Bay, Ontario, to my hometown of Bridgewater, Nova Scotia.
Downtowns are shared public spaces, places where people work, live, shop and gather to celebrate, to mourn or to peacefully protest. When public safety deteriorates in these settings, the trust that sustains these communities erodes. The consequences of this erosion are increasingly visible in downtowns across Canada. I'm sure you've seen it in your own communities, especially these past five years or so.
All of my colleagues across the country tell similar stories. Beyond increasing social disorder, homelessness, addiction and visible drug use, we see an escalation in brazen daytime shoplifting, a crime that victimizes business owners and terrorizes frontline staff, often young women. This crime is perpetrated again and again by the same individuals, some driven by need but oftentimes organized and seemingly with impunity.
Frustrated local police report that arrests are ineffective, and businesses grow increasingly frustrated by a catch-and-release system. It's a downward spiral. Businesses reduce operating hours, foot traffic declines, Canadians feel unsafe coming back to the office and commercial assessments decrease. This further limits municipal budgets and services that are frequently already stretched very thin.
The media has noticed this as well. Two recent headlines, no doubt worded to increase clicks, were particularly disturbing to many of us. “'Don't go downtown!' Inside Canada's small-town homeless catastrophe”, said The Globe and Mail on December 12. “The Canadian downtowns being economically gutted by street disorder”, wrote the National Post on January 9.
Public opinion data reinforces these concerns. In Canada's three largest urban centres, Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal, residents increasingly believe that crime is worsening. In downtown Toronto, 76% of residents believe crime has increased in the past year, representing a significant increase over 2024. In metro Vancouver, more than seven in 10 residents believe crime and violence have worsened, and nearly eight in 10 express concern about the state of their downtown core. In Montreal, only 3% of residents believe that the city has become safer since 2020.
This is not just a large-city issue. We hear exactly the same thing from our members in smaller communities. While perception of crime may not completely align with crime statistics, a poor perception of safety will kill our downtowns, regardless of what we do with regard to promotion, events and beautification.
These surveys all point to a broader national trend of declining confidence in the safety of Canada's downtowns and urban centres. When communities across provinces, governing structures and policing models report similar patterns, it becomes clear that this challenge cannot be addressed by municipalities or provinces alone. Federal leadership is essential. Without action to address systemic issues within the justice system, the social and economic contributions of downtowns and main streets will continue to erode.
Our members are taking action locally within their own communities. Local BIAs invest in safety initiatives and collaborate with police and social service agencies, and we work closely with municipalities to support vulnerable populations.
However, there are clear limits to what we can achieve when systemic change is required. This is why this committee's work is so important. IDA Canada supports bipartisan legislative efforts, including Bill C‑14, as an opportunity to restore balance, strengthening public safety and confidence in urban centres while maintaining the integrity of Canada's justice system.
For downtowns across the country, the measures under consideration are consequential. They will help determine whether our streets remain places of opportunity and engagement or increasingly become places that people want to avoid.
We encourage this committee to consider the national implications of this issue and to act decisively. The future of Canada's downtowns and the communities and economies that they sustain do depend on it.
Thank you for your time, and I'd be happy to answer any questions you have.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal James Maloney
Thank you both very much.
We'll start the six-minute round with Mr. Baber.
Conservative
Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON
Thank you very much, Chair.
I will not be looking to credit my time as I make a few brief comments about tonight's event for our staff and for my own staff.
First, I'm very pleased that, earlier today, my constituency assistant, Martina Rosini, was awarded the long service award. She's been with the House of Commons for six years. She previously served in the whip's office. She is simply the best constituency assistant one could ever have. I get emails about her, at least every other week, thanking her for her service to our constituents. On the record, I'm incredibly grateful to Martina for all she does for my office, for the people of York Centre and for all Canadians.
Even though she did not obtain an award tonight, I would like to recognize my chief of staff, Bathusa Baskararajah, who is, I believe, in the room today. She has been serving the House of Commons for only about 10 months, since I was elected about 10 months ago, but she has been working with me for the last 14 years. That is just simply a remarkable accomplishment. She first worked at my law firm and then at Queen's Park. Then, she worked for me in the time between Queen's Park and Parliament Hill, and she has now joined me in Ottawa. I'm very grateful to Bathusa for the 14 years that she has been with me, and I couldn't be happier and more proud.
Also, I want to welcome our newest associate, Jonathan Lesarge, who has just joined our office and has been making wonderful contributions already.
To the witnesses, thank you for your patience, gentlemen. We got to joke around earlier that we ran out of coffee. We worried that we weren't going to hear from you today, but I'm glad you're here.
Mr. MacKinnon, I'm a huge fan of downtown Toronto. I represent a riding in north Toronto, and I'm blessed to still go downtown quite often.
...downtown
Where all the lights are bright, downtown
Waiting for you tonight, downtown
You're gonna be alright...
I think that's how it goes.
I am very concerned by the decay experienced in downtown Toronto. On every other block you see a lot of retail vacancy. People no longer feel safe on the TTC going downtown. Folks come out at Union Station and see a lot of homelessness. Frankly, the experience of going downtown to a Leafs game, to a Raptors game or just out to dinner on Queen Street with your loved one on a Saturday night is not the same anymore.
Other than bail—and I hope my colleagues will indulge your presence a bit—is there anything else the federal level of government can do, for downtown Toronto in particular, or generally?
Chairperson, International Downtown Association Canada
Yes, those are great points.
Downtown Toronto is often a litmus test for other issues that are going to be coming to other downtowns. We work a lot, very closely, with our colleagues in Toronto. Toronto's blessed to now have 85, I think, business improvement associations and six large ones in the core that do great work.
However, it's a real concern, and it's a trend we're seeing across the country. There's a lot of co-mingling of things: homeless encampments, crime, social issues, addiction issues.
When we, as a group, came to Ottawa last fall and met with a number of MPs and senators, one of our big focus areas was broadly public safety. What we really encompassed in that was the stick approach of bail reform, Bill C-14, and better, more effective law enforcement, especially for repeat offenders. That's one part of the equation.
The other part of the equation is that we're also advocating for more effective deployment of funds around mental health services for addiction and for homeless issues as well, because there is a lot of cross-pollination. A good example we often hear—it's probably more anecdotal than evidence-based—is that people may be shoplifting initially from a sense of need because they're homeless or have addiction issues or whatever, but because of the catch-and-release system, suddenly, people are able to shoplift with impunity. We're hearing, especially from western Canadian colleagues, that those are the perfect people to be employed by organized crime to do retail theft for them, and that's what we're seeing escalating.
It is a small number of individuals, but we're also very concerned about how it seems to be becoming much more organized, and it's coming across the country.
Conservative
Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON
Yes. In fact—this is to Mr. Poirier—when I look at Bill C-14, there's very little mention of organized crime.
My riding borders the Yorkdale mall and the Centerpoint Mall, which have been subjected to brazen daytime robberies at jewellery stores. It's unthinkable. Regrettably, the only thing Bill C-14 does is direct the judge to put his or her mind to the principle of deterrence and denunciation on sentencing. There's no change in terms of the actual time. No sentences will be amended by Bill C-14, other than for contempt of court.
Mr. Poirier, while you're somewhat supportive of the bill, would you have wished to see longer sentences for organized crime prescribed in the bill?
Vice-President, Federal Government Relations, Retail Council of Canada
Certainly. The three of us all mentioned the word “brazenness”. That's the biggest challenge we're seeing, and it's not getting better, particularly when we're talking about retail crime.
Our view of Bill C-14 is that, finally, we're here, and there's a good bone structure to it, but we need to add a bit more to it. We have some specific recommendations that we have shared with the committee for consideration, which, indeed, revolve around sentencing.
Consecutive sentencing versus concurrent sentencing would be a huge help. Whether you want to treat it as an aggravating factor when they're considering sentencing.... We're calling it the discount effect. In retail crime, the particular nature of it is that you don't just steal once; you steal multiple times. With the more you steal, if you can serve those sentences for those crimes concurrently, they get thrown into a blender and then with every instance of theft you commit, you actually get less of a sentence.
We would love to see a bit more teeth in that area, particularly on sentencing, and certainly on aggregating the value of theft, too. Right now, if what you steal is under $5,000.... All of the organized crime rings we're seeing for retail theft are gaming the system, knowing what the law is. They're recruiting vulnerable youth to commit these crimes because they'll face less of a punishment as a youth offender. We're seeing them organize how and where they're stealing to make sure that they're under the $5,000 threshold. Let's start adding it all together. If I steal something from one retailer and go to the next, those thefts are treated in a vacuum in the legal system, but I stole all of those things in that one day. There are some changes there that we would love to see, certainly.
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to both of our witnesses for being here to testify about this bail reform bill. You were supposed to start testifying around three hours ago, so I apologize on behalf of the Conservatives for their filibuster.
You and other witnesses have come and testified over and over that there is a dire urgency for this bill to be passed and that there is even a certain desperation, because communities, businesses and vulnerable people are being affected. Over and over, witnesses have said it's not perfect, and that's fine, but at least it's a start.
I would like to start by asking Mr. Poirier a question. I don't know if Mr. MacKinnon would like to jump in. I'd also thank you for patiently waiting—I'll reiterate that—and for using your valuable time to come and testify today before us.
What do you think of the delay tactics of the Conservatives that you are presently seeing? Would you not like to see this bill quickly passed?
Vice-President, Federal Government Relations, Retail Council of Canada
In our remarks, we said we hope Parliament passes this as soon as possible. I would reiterate that comment.
Liberal
Chairperson, International Downtown Association Canada
I think there are two things happening. One is that there is business confidence and the actual, real costs that businesses are suffering. A general sense from businesses is that they don't necessarily always parse which level of government is responsible for which pieces of law and enforcement. They're frustrated overall with the system and the catch-and-release they're experiencing. There's the business confidence piece, which we see and are monitoring, and it's just going down.
The other piece, with the general public, is that downtowns are like people. Their reputations can be ruined very quickly and they take a long time to recover. In our business, we're used to saying, “Come downtown. It's perfect.” It's very hard for us now to make a pivot to say, “You know what? Things aren't perfect.” We're hearing this from our customers, so we really see the urgency in acting now, providing confidence to business owners and getting the message to the public that there's going to be a change in the way things are enforced downtown.
I would agree that there is some urgency to move this along.
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
Wonderful, thank you.
Mr. Poirier, retail workers are often on the front lines of these thefts and, in a way, they're right there in the middle of danger. What does Bill C-14 signify to these businesses and these workers about Parliament taking their concerns and safety seriously? They're just trying to earn a living and trying to run a business.
Can you please elaborate on that?
Vice-President, Federal Government Relations, Retail Council of Canada
Worker morale is a big issue in retail right now. You can look at it from a workplace safety issue alone. In instances of brazen theft and armed robbery, workers are trained, rightly so, to not engage and to stay back. That has the unfortunate effect of angering customers in the store, who then redirect it at the retail workers. It's just creating this very nasty and toxic environment for them to work in. As you would understand, morale is suffering as a result of this.
I referenced it in my remarks, and I'll say it again. This bill, if it translates into retail crime being prosecuted and punished more severely, will help. It will send a better signal than what workers are getting right now, where you see repeat offenders coming back into the store. “Here we go again." That's sort of the feeling they have.
I'll also add that retail crime is unique as to where it falls on the spectrum of crime generally. People often think, “Oh, it's shoplifting, it's harmless stuff.” Well, it isn't. Resources from police forces on down are allocated accordingly. They see it a lot more because it's happening more.
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
Perfect, thank you so much.
Mr. MacKinnon, your members have emphasized the need for practical and workable solutions. How does Bill C-14, in your opinion, address downtown safety by focusing on repeat offending rather than attempting to solve every issue all at once?
Chairperson, International Downtown Association Canada
Passing an imperfect bill quickly is much better than waiting for perfection. There is no perfect bill. We've heard that quote a couple of times today. There is definitely some urgency to it.
I'd like to echo some of the comments that we get from our own police force. They're feeling a lot of frustration in a lot of cases. They're feeling the brunt of it. They typically are the ones that get blamed by the businesses. When we have town hall meetings with the police, they explain that they're being told by prosecutors in the courts, “Stop wasting my time bringing these people in, these repeat offenders.”
There's a lot of frustration within the system, so anything to kind of clear that frustration and empower the police.... I think they do want to do more. They're seeing the impact that it's having on the community. They do want to do much more about it. This bill would really help empower them to do much more.
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
I thank you so much for coming today and for the time you've spent with us.
