Evidence of meeting #23 for Justice and Human Rights in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was control.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Zaccour  Director of Legal Affairs, National Association of Women and the Law
Riendeau  Co-Lead, Political Affairs, Regroupement des maisons pour femmes victimes de violence conjugale
Barrette  Lawyer and Project Manager, Regroupement des maisons pour femmes victimes de violence conjugale
Champagne  Secretary of the Order and Director of the Legal Department, Barreau du Québec
Copeland  Deputy Director, Domestic Policy, Macdonald-Laurier Institute
Crystal J. Giesbrecht  Director of Research, Provincial Association of Transition Houses and Service of Saskatchewan
Marchand  Member, Criminal Law Expert Group, Barreau du Québec

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Good morning, everybody. Welcome back. I hope everybody had a pleasant and productive couple of constituency weeks.

Welcome to meeting number 23 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. Pursuant to the order of reference of February 2, 2026, the committee is meeting to resume its study of Bill C-16, an act to amend certain acts in relation to criminal and correctional matters: child protection, gender-based violence, delays and other measures.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

For Mr. Housefather and Ms. Lattanzio, sound tests were done. Nod if you can hear me.

Ms. Lattanzio, was your sound test done?

Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

It was not, Mr. Chair. I'm waiting.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Okay. Maybe you can do that while I carry on with the opening remarks.

Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Sure.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Somebody will let us know if there's a problem.

I will dispense with the rest of the online instructions as we know them well.

Please wait until I recognize you before speaking. For those participating by video conference, you know the drill. For those on Zoom, you have all of the instructions on your screens.

This takes me to the welcoming of our witnesses. In our first hour, we have, from the National Association of Women and the Law, Suzanne Zaccour, director of legal affairs. From the Regroupement des maisons pour femmes victimes de violence conjugale, we have Karine Barrette, lawyer and project manager, and Louise Riendeau, co-lead, political affairs.

Thank you very much for joining us today. We're grateful to you for taking the time.

Each organization will have up to five minutes to make opening remarks, and then we'll open the floor to questions.

Ms. Zaccour, we'll start with you.

Suzanne Zaccour Director of Legal Affairs, National Association of Women and the Law

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The National Association of Women and the Law, or NAWL, is an award-winning organization that advances women's rights through feminist law reform advocacy. The focus of our brief will be on technical amendments to improve Bill C-16. I'll group them under three themes.

The first theme is where the bill may backfire against survivors. If they're not amended, new provisions on coercive control, mandatory minimums and constructive first-degree murder—which is labelled as femicide—will have adverse consequences for survivors of gender-based violence. Since I have very limited time, I'll focus on coercive control.

This offence would cover “controlling or attempting to control the manner in which the intimate partner cares” for children. That's proposed subparagraph 264.01(2)(c)(ii). This needs to be removed. We've seen that family courts have already started labelling survivors of domestic violence as engaging in coercive control, because their attempts to keep themselves and their children safe are seen as controlling or alienating. If this proposed subparagraph is not removed from the offence, abusers will exploit it to threaten survivors with criminalization. That will make it more difficult to leave an abusive situation.

My second theme is “positive developments but with some arbitrary restrictions”. One example is the criminal harassment offence. Under the reformed offence, it will be illegal to willingly cause fear to your intimate partner, among others, if a reasonable person would have been afraid but not if your partner was in fact afraid. When abusers cause fear to their partners or ex-partners, really it's irrelevant whether an imagined reasonable victim would have been afraid, since the abuser is specifically targeting the fears and vulnerabilities of a person they know very well. NAWL urges the committee to define harassing conduct as one that either causes subjective fear or would reasonably be expected to cause fear. As long as the accused willingly causes fear, it does not matter if the victim's fears and phobias are reasonable, as it's not the victim who is on trial.

Further, that the bill recognizes that abusers use violence against animals to control and terrorize victims is a positive development, but the bill then draws an arbitrary distinction based on the ownership relationship with the animal. In criminal harassment, saying “I will kill your dog” is threatening conduct, but saying “I will kill your mother's dog” is not. Where threats to animals are recognized, which is in criminal harassment and coercive control, we recommend changing the language from an animal that is in the care or property of the victim to any animal known to them.

NAWL also supports various measures in the bill that are procedural protections for victims of intimate partner violence, but does not support limiting them to cases of serious offences involving physical violence and threats. This is a little bit ironic in a bill that seeks to recognize coercive control. Throughout the bill in many places are protection measures that are called for in cases of an indictable offence “in the commission of which violence was used, threatened or attempted against an intimate partner”. We recommend replacing this language throughout with “any offence committed against an intimate partner”.

The bill also seeks to increase protections against the use of victims' therapeutic records without applying the same protections to other records that can also be highly sensitive and very private, such as child protection records, personal diaries and sexual assault centre records. All personal records should be treated with the same care such that they are only produced in criminal trials when they contain evidence that can raise a reasonable doubt as to the guilt of the accused.

Third and lastly, NAWL's brief identifies several loopholes that this bill can and should close, including an overly restrictive definition of deepfakes, where abusers just have to make the image non-realistic to escape criminalization. A deepfake set in a bedroom would be criminal, but the same deepfake where you change the background to be an under-the-sea castle is no longer realistic, so it no longer fits the definition of a deepfake. Again, that's an arbitrary distinction, because the harm of the deepfake is not that people may think the victim has done something sexual. The harm is that their sexual integrity is violated.

In our brief, we also point to a dual regime, where some firearms owners who are domestic abusers will lose their firearms, but not if they are police officers. We also point to and suggest closing loopholes regarding the use of sexual history evidence.

I want to point out that both of these proposals and all the other proposals in our brief come with specific drafted proposed amendments. I'm really happy to go through them in more detail in the question and answer period.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you very much, Ms. Zaccour.

Ms. Barrette or Ms. Riendeau, one of you will start us off.

Louise Riendeau Co-Lead, Political Affairs, Regroupement des maisons pour femmes victimes de violence conjugale

I will start, and then I will turn it over to my colleague.

Thank you for inviting us to share our views on Bill C‑16.

Regroupement des maisons pour femmes victimes de violence conjugale has been actively advocating for the creation of a coercive control offence and applauds the Minister of Justice for including such an offence in the bill.

In our view, criminalizing coercive control would be a major step forward not just for women, but also for society. That is true for a number of reasons. The measure would provide a new tool for identifying domestic violence and intervening more effectively. The measure would especially send a clear message to Canadians: all coercive and controlling behaviour is dangerous and unacceptable, and should be reported. The measure would finally recognize the fact that victims experience not just physical violence, but also a wide range of controlling behaviours day in and day out, behaviours that affect their lives and their health, as well as the lives and health of their children. Coercive control affects the entire family. The arbitrary rules, tension and fear imposed by the abuser are detrimental to the well-being of the children, who are also victims.

An examination of the full experience of victims and their children contradicts the limited view that these are isolated incidents, which does not reflect their actual experience. The criminalization of coercive control would help the justice system better respond to domestic violence by taking into account the context and history of the violence.

Lastly, coercive control is a significant predictor of homicide, so the creation of a new offence would provide another effective tool to break the cycle of violence sooner and properly assess the dangerousness of the domestic violence situation throughout the legal process.

Nevertheless, criminalization must go hand in hand with measures for optimal implementation. These measures are important. Women's rights advocates fear that the criminalization of coercive control could be used against victims. The fear is that it will result in more victims being charged in cross-complaint situations than is currently the case. It's also feared that certain groups of women will pay the price, especially indigenous and racialized women.

Karine Barrette Lawyer and Project Manager, Regroupement des maisons pour femmes victimes de violence conjugale

There were similar fears in Great Britain, where we carried out two missions to talk to a range of stakeholders about the actual effects that criminalizing coercive control had. We learned that those fears did not materialize. In our discussions with people in England and Scotland, we came to realize that it was possible to prevent these perverse effects. The solution lies in training police officers and prosecutors, and giving them the tools to properly assess who the main aggressor is when both partners claim or seem to be victims. Through the coercive control lens, criminal justice actors examine the pattern of coercive and controlling conduct, consisting of repeated instances, not isolated events, and are thus able to determine who the real aggressor is and who used defensive or reactionary violence.

Australia put controls and case review mechanisms in place to deal with the problem of the law being weaponized by perpetrators against victims. Before the bill comes into force, it's important to take the time and provide the necessary resources to adequately train all social and legal stakeholders, to develop the appropriate guidelines for police and prosecutors, to strengthen legal and psychosocial supports for victims, and to conduct education and awareness campaigns for both victims and the general public. That is precisely why we are asking that the coercive control provisions in the bill not come into force until two years after royal assent.

Drawing on the experience of the Australian states we visited in September, we recommend that panels made up of national, provincial and territorial experts in the field be responsible for the coordinated implementation of the new provisions, and that police and prosecution data be collected and tracked. This will ensure that criminalization is having the desired effect, not unintended consequences. In that vein, we recommend a legislative review every two years for a period of six years, informed by the reported data.

As for amendments to Bill C‑16, in the French version, we recommend changing the wording “en danger” to “menacée” in provisions that refer to the person's safety being at risk. This would be consistent with the English version, which refers to the person's safety being “threatened”. In our view, “menacée” requires a lower burden of proof. We also recommend that the definition of femicide in the French version specify that it is the murder of a woman or girl, specifically “une femme ou une fille”. Lastly, we oppose giving police the power to apply alternative measures instead of proceeding with the laying of an information against the alleged perpetrator in domestic violence cases. Whether prosecutors should have a similar power also warrants consideration.

The rest of our recommendations appear in our brief.

Thank you very much.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you very much.

We'll move into the first round of questions.

Mr. Gill, you have six minutes.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Amarjeet Gill Conservative Brampton West, ON

Thank you so much.

Good morning, everyone. Thank you to the witnesses.

In my community of Brampton, intimate partner violence has been declared an epidemic by Peel Regional Police. Peel police respond to 46 intimate partner violence calls per day. That's one every 30 minutes. It is important to my community that we take the right steps to end this epidemic. I welcome every step we take to stop crime and provide safety to Canadians.

Ms. Zaccour, do you think the government has gotten it right in this bill by making intimate partner murder a first-degree murder charge?

11:15 a.m.

Director of Legal Affairs, National Association of Women and the Law

Suzanne Zaccour

Thank you for the question.

As currently drafted, we do not support the constructive first-degree offence, which is misleadingly labelled “femicide” even though the offence is not gendered. The marginal note that calls the crime “femicide” is not part of the legislation. We support gendering that offence. The reason is that if it's not gendered, it risks being used to overcriminalize the survivors who kill an intimate partner in self-defence. They should be acquitted based on self-defence, but sometimes they do not argue self-defence. They instead will plead to a lesser offence, which is currently manslaughter. With this new provision, we fear that some of these survivors will plead to second-degree murder to avoid the first-degree murder conviction.

We recommend that the committee gender that offence, saying that it's the killing of a woman or a girl, as my colleagues also proposed.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Amarjeet Gill Conservative Brampton West, ON

The government is calling the murder of an intimate partner “femicide”. Is that actually what femicide is?

11:15 a.m.

Director of Legal Affairs, National Association of Women and the Law

Suzanne Zaccour

No. As I was saying, femicide has various definitions, but in all the definitions that I'm aware of, it has to be the murder of a woman or a girl. If the committee changes that to the murder of a woman or a girl, then it's less important to limit that constructive offence to where there's coercive control. It could be an intimate partner, but only if that limit is placed to avoid backfiring against survivors.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Amarjeet Gill Conservative Brampton West, ON

We know that Liberal catch-and-release policies have deprived victims of the peace of mind they deserve. Regarding the Victims Bill of Rights, you call for the government to grant actual rights and remedies to the victims of crime. How has the government failed in Bill C-16 to put victims first for a change?

11:15 a.m.

Director of Legal Affairs, National Association of Women and the Law

Suzanne Zaccour

Bill C-16 proposes changes to the Canadian Victims Bill of Rights that are positive changes in general, but the Victims Bill of Rights is premised on rights that are granted to victims without actual remedy. There's actually a provision in the bill of rights that says it does not grant an actual remedy where victims could sue someone if their rights are not respected. That's what we propose in our amendment. In law we sometimes say that there's no right without a remedy, which means that if you have a right but nothing happens or it's violated, then what's the point of having that right?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Amarjeet Gill Conservative Brampton West, ON

Your brief suggested amending clause 28 of Bill C-16 by removing the sections on the treatment of a child or animal. What did the government get wrong on this? How will it impact victims if left unchanged?

11:20 a.m.

Director of Legal Affairs, National Association of Women and the Law

Suzanne Zaccour

Could you please repeat the provision you're referring to?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Amarjeet Gill Conservative Brampton West, ON

It's clause 28 of Bill C-16. It's with regard to removing the sections on the treatment of a child or animal.

11:20 a.m.

Director of Legal Affairs, National Association of Women and the Law

Suzanne Zaccour

The issue, as I said in my testimony, is that survivors could be criminalized through this provision or threatened with criminalization sufficient to prevent them from leaving an abuser. Because there are cultural myths and stereotypes about mothers, especially, being controlling in their home, we think this should be removed from the list. It's a non-exhaustive list. If there's actual abuse being committed in any form, it can still fit into the offence, but this calls attention to the ways in which someone controls how people care for their children. Sometimes this is born out of safety concerns, so it should be removed.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Amarjeet Gill Conservative Brampton West, ON

Conservatives believe that this bill, while flawed, has some potential to protect victims and avoid revictimizing them in the legal process. Do you agree?

11:20 a.m.

Director of Legal Affairs, National Association of Women and the Law

Suzanne Zaccour

I think there are some good provisions in the bill, but some of them need to be amended to either prevent problematic sections of the bill or go even further in those sections that are positive developments and make sure they cover all survivors and victims.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Amarjeet Gill Conservative Brampton West, ON

You mentioned that you don't want women to be criminalized if they use lethal force to defend themselves against their partner. Do you think a change like the one proposed in Bill C-270, the Conservative stand on guard act, could address that?

11:20 a.m.

Director of Legal Affairs, National Association of Women and the Law

Suzanne Zaccour

The issue is not to say that women should not be criminalized if they kill an intimate partner. It's really about cases where it is self-defence. These are cases in which the killing is done to protect yourself.

The real solution, obviously, is to give women an out for these abusive situations, which we'll also discuss in the next bill you're studying, Bill C-223, so that women can leave the situation. Then, they're neither killed nor kill their abusive partner. That's where we should direct our efforts. However, when tragedy happens and there is a murder of an intimate partner, if it's in self-defence, then the survivor should not be criminalized.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Amarjeet Gill Conservative Brampton West, ON

My question is for Ms. Riendeau. I would like to focus on your organization's trip to Australia. You had issues with Australian laws criminalizing victims. Did the government make the same mistake with Bill C-16?