Justice Committee on Oct. 5th, 2026

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much. That actually concludes your time.

Ministers, if you have additional things to say, please submit them in writing.

We're going to go to Monsieur Fortin for one minute.

I'm going to keep time, Monsieur Fortin.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister Fraser, someone talked about the issue with clause 17 earlier. The clause says this: In order to focus the Agency's efforts on serious and complex financial crimes, the Commissioner may establish criteria respecting which matters should be investigated under this Act.

Don't you find it surprising that the commissioner, whose position is created in the act and who manages the agency created by the act, is the one to decide what should be investigated? As I understand it, a parliamentary structure should be responsible for that. Wouldn't you agree?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

We rely on law enforcement agencies every day in this country to choose which matters are going to be investigated. Sometimes, even when the law suggests that a particular behaviour would be a crime, different agencies make these decisions at different times as a result of prioritization and resources. One of the advantages to the approach that we've taken is that it will empower the commissioner to take decisions that will be able to evolve over time to ensure that we don't have to wait a year or two years for a piece of legislation to pass should we wish to update the definitions in order to pursue crime that emerges as a new and modern threat in the landscape.

I'll repeat the invitation that I suggested earlier: Hear from the director of public prosecutions. Ask your questions. To the extent that you remain unsatisfied that the approach chosen is the appropriate one, this is the best forum to have those debates.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much.

I appreciate that, Monsieur Fortin. Thank you for keeping it brief.

Thank you, Minister Fraser, Minister Anandasangaree, Mike, Owen, Chad and Mike for being here today. We really appreciate all of your input and look forward to continuing to work with you.

I'm going to suspend the meeting while we switch to our next panel.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

I'm calling this meeting back to order for our second hour on the consideration of Bill C-29.

I'd like to welcome, from the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, Chad Westmacott, director general, serious and organized crime, and Mike McGuire, director general, international and border policy. From the Department of Justice, we have Matthew Taylor, senior general counsel and director general, criminal law policy section. From the Department of Finance, we have Julien Brazeau, assistant deputy minister, and Charlene Davidson, senior director, financial crimes and security division. We have, from financial crimes agency creation, Rob Stewart, deputy minister, and from the financial crimes agency transition team, we have Benjamin Rankin, senior adviser. From the RCMP, we have Mike Saghbini, director general, financial crime.

Welcome, folks. We're very excited to have you here.

Would any of you be making any opening remarks? No.

All right. We'll go straight into questions, starting with Mr. Gill for six minutes.

Please go ahead, Mr. Gill.

[Amarjeet Gill, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for their appearances today.

My first question is for Mr. Stewart.

My community and my city of Brampton have been begging for action to combat extortion. Will this new agency be responsible for combatting extortion?

[Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister, Financial Crimes Agency Creation]

At this point in time, we are in the stages of planning the agency and standing it up as an entity. We are waiting for the bill to be given royal assent. We have not, at this point in time, determined—because this will be the business of the agency once it's established—the precise focus of the efforts of the agency.

What I can tell you is that the primary objective of the agency is going to be to follow the money. Where we have organized crime operating and money is funnelling from any number of crimes that are predicate crimes, we are going to try to track that money as it moves through the system, intercept it and recover those assets.

[Amarjeet Gill, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Do you think extortion is a financial crime?

[Rob Stewart]

Yes, it could be a financial crime, absolutely, if it involves funds, but it could also be a predicate crime.

[Amarjeet Gill, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

My second question is for Mr. Taylor. Possibly Mr. Saghbini could answer it as well.

It is said that for every victim of extortion who reports the crime to the police, there are countless others who do not come forward and report these incidents. Does your department have statistics or numbers on reported versus non-reported crimes, such as extortion?

[Matthew Taylor, Senior General Counsel and Director General, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice]

The Department of Justice doesn't have those official statistics, but we can, through Statistics Canada and the Canadian centre for justice statistics, identify the number of charges that have been laid by police across Canada and the court outcomes in respect of those cases. It does give us a bit of an approximation of the extent of particular types of crime in Canada.

[Amarjeet Gill, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Do you want to answer?

[Chief Superintendent Mike Saghbini, Director General, Financial Crime, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

His answer is correct.

Most of it goes through Stats Canada. When it comes to extortion, crimes are reported mainly to the police of jurisdiction. If it's Brampton, it'll be the local police. The stats will be dispersed to different agencies within the province or the country.

[Amarjeet Gill, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Does the government know where the money from extortion in communities like Brampton is going?

[Matthew Taylor]

I'm not in a position to answer that.

Certainly, we know generally that criminal groups, criminal organizations, will use funds that they obtain through their illegal activities to fund other criminal activities in order to, obviously, profit from them. We know that any sort of financial crime that generates revenue for criminal organizations will have a negative impact on public safety and will lead to the proliferation of crime more generally.

[Amarjeet Gill, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

As another question, the number of fraud cases reported to police is up by 140% in a decade. Police lay charges less than 10% of the time. Is that because there is no hope for a conviction?

[Matthew Taylor]

It's difficult for me to say why independent police officers choose to lay charges and how those proceed through the system. Sometimes charges may be withdrawn due to lack of evidence. Sometimes charges may be withdrawn because of an agreement to plead guilty to other charges, so while you may have a specific charge withdrawn in one case, you have a conviction in another case. In other cases, obviously, courts will find individuals guilty or not guilty.

[Amarjeet Gill, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Do you think we have to find and fill up the gaps that are going to be in this current legislation and make it robust so that people cannot misuse it and police can lay the charges and have more convictions?

[Rob Stewart]

Absolutely, yes, I do.

[Amarjeet Gill, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

What measurable targets have you established for the agency's investigations, charges, prosecutions and dollars in criminal assets identified or recovered?

[Rob Stewart]

Targets...?

[Amarjeet Gill, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

I will repeat my question.

What measurable targets have you established for the agency, such as investigations, charges, prosecutions and dollars in criminal assets identified or recovered?

[Rob Stewart]

The agency does not exist. It will be a first order of business to establish, as per clause 17 of the legislation, the definitions of the crimes the agency will pursue and, in that context, what it expects to achieve in terms of objectives, but at this point in time we have not set targets.

[Amarjeet Gill, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

FINTRAC wrote a special bulletin on extortion targeting the South Asian community. That bulletin says that perpetrators exploit Canada's financial and communication infrastructure. What gaps did the government create for organized crime to exploit?

[Rob Stewart]

I beg your pardon, sir...?