Justice Committee on Oct. 5th, 2026

[Marilyn Gladu, Liberal, Sarnia—Lambton—Bkejwanong, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Fortin, you have the floor for six minutes.

Please go ahead.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister Anandasangaree and Minister Fraser, welcome to the committee. It's always a pleasure to hear your testimony.

Bill C‑29 is a rather meaningful bill that proposes to disregard in some cases the division of powers set out in the British North America Act. We, at the Bloc Québécois, take this very seriously. I think you will agree that it must be clear.

Honestly, it is not clear to me here when it comes to financial crimes. Obviously, we know what finances are and what a crime is. However, according to the bill, a “financial crime” is a violation of a federal act relating to financial assets. I would say there are a good number of offences that meet that description. The definition of serious and complex financial crimes includes money laundering, fraud, organized criminal activity, theft, extortion, corruption, drug trafficking, other economic crimes and money laundering. There isn't much left once you include crimes in those categories.

I would like you to explain why it is necessary to disregard the division of powers set out in the British North America Act and remove the provincial attorneys general's power to prosecute in these areas.

Minister Fraser, can you answer the question first?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Before I do, I would like to thank you for your questions.

However, I don't agree with every point you raised. It is important to recognize that nowadays police officers, including in the RCMP, are investigating crimes. Normally, federal and provincial systems can work together.

That piece, in my view, doesn't change significantly. There are federal entities that investigate many of these crimes now.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

If I may, Minister, I just want to say that your fiat provides for exclusive jurisdiction. That's where I see a difference. There is no exclusive jurisdiction at the moment. Every crime I listed will fall under exclusive federal jurisdiction. This is where we have significant questions, if not objections.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Yes.

The fiat power, I expect, will be used in exceptional circumstances where it's impracticable for a provincial entity to conduct an investigation because of that investigation crossing provincial boundaries or entering into international collaboration, where working alongside our allies to conduct an investigation or share information may be necessary. This is not something where I expect...nor do I think the individuals charged with investigating crimes want to come in and take jurisdiction on many or a significant number of investigations that are currently being run—and being run competently, by the way—by many provincial entities. The goal here is to fill the gaps where there will be an advantage to working on a national basis, typically because there's an interprovincial or international dimension, although perhaps not exclusively.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Minister, you said a few times that you were open to suggestions for amendments.

Would you accept amendments that would clarify that question? The idea would be to clarify what is meant by serious and complex financial crime. Would you be open to that?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

If I had amendments, they would be reflected in the original draft of the bill on this particular piece.

I would suggest that members of this committee, before making decisions on the specific, exceptional fiat power, hear from the director of public prosecutions about the circumstances in which this may be necessary for Canada to play a role in very serious efforts to combat enterprise crime.

Right now, since we are one of a handful of allies with advanced economies and are a Five Eyes partner, to not have such an agency makes it difficult for people to share information with us.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I'm sorry to interrupt, Minister, but I have about a minute of speaking time left.

There is also the national interest aspect, which the bill refers to, that should be clarified. We have talked about this. Bill C‑39 is before the House. You know as well as I do that the opposition has a lot of questions about the type of prerogative the Prime Minister defends, which is when he deems a certain project is of the national interest, he will be able to authorize it more quickly, without having to submit to a certain number of planned assessments, especially when it comes to the environment. He will also be able to set aside certain labour relations rules. There is a whole range of things.

Since we're not talking about Bill C‑39, I don't want to delve too deeply into this topic. That said, for Mr. Carney's government, national interest seems to be of particular importance, and Bill C‑29 refers to that as well. Can you narrow the scope of what the national interest is? We find it quite broad.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

In the 30 seconds I have, I'll try to be precise.

Given that the bill is now before committee, it's not necessarily solely for the minister or the government to propose these changes. To the extent that you have ideas, I would ask that before you advance proposed amendments, hear from the director. Hear about the circumstances in which it is necessary to have these powers. If this committee is of the view that it needs to be further ring-fenced, then you should put the questions to the director to understand why and how. If at the end of the day we can find agreement through good-faith consideration of the proposals that this committee puts forward from any side, that's just how an effective democracy should function.

Please, get information from the people who were telling us during our consultations that this would have a meaningful impact on their ability to fight crime and to dismantle criminal organizations. Perhaps after you've availed yourself of that opportunity, we'd be in a position to discuss in an informed way whether and to what extent amendments would be required.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Mr. Fortin

Moving on to our second round, we'll go to Mr. Baber for five minutes.

Please go ahead.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Minister, the criminal intelligence service estimates that between $45 billion and $113 billion is laundered in Canada every year. Are you familiar with that estimate?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood—Rouge Park, ON]

There are a number of estimates, Mr. Baber. It is quite significant. It's one of the reasons we're establishing—

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Would you like to offer your own estimate?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood—Rouge Park, ON]

No. What I will say is that there are a number of different ones. It depends on how you look at it. Mr. Fraser offered a number. A number of other entities have different perspectives. Suffice it to say that a high amount is being laundered or is not within our tax system.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

The intelligence service has said that it could be as high as $113 billion. That's very high.

Do you have any idea of how much of it is laundered for terrorist causes?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood—Rouge Park, ON]

What I will say is that transnational organized crime in some situations does include terrorist-related activities. Again, it really does speak to why we need greater coordination and a greater concentration of expertise within an agency.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Respectfully, I think it speaks to the government's failure to police money laundering in Canada.

A 2025 Department of Finance report warned that Canada is a hub for terrorist fundraising. Are you familiar with the 2025 report?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood—Rouge Park, ON]

I am familiar with the assertion that terrorism-related fundraising does occur. It is of concern to the government. A number of activities have been undertaken by the RCMP and CSIS. The Minister of Finance, you will recall, had very specific tracking of those money exchange companies—

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Let's talk about—

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood—Rouge Park, ON]

—earlier this year and late last fall.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Let's talk about simple premises. The terrorist group Hezbollah was cited in that report as being a leading recipient of funds originating from Canada. Specifically, it's the port of Montreal that stands out as a known link, where luxury vehicles are shipped to Lebanon and then sold, with proceeds going to Hezbollah.

You've been at this job for 18 months. Why have you failed to shut down the financing of Hezbollah through the port of Montreal?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood—Rouge Park, ON]

What I will say, Mr. Baber, is that the actions we've undertaken have resulted in a significant reduction in, for example, auto theft, which is one of the outlets by which money laundering takes place to a number of different entities. From my recollection, auto theft is down 18% overall. This is according to Équité Association. It is trending downwards. I believe the work of law enforcement in key areas, including Peel region, has resulted in some significant reductions.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

This is after a record high in auto thefts.

Minister, commercial ports are regulated by the federal government. Respectfully, I believe that this is your responsibility, and your answer did not address the port of Montreal.

How about the abuse of non-profit organizations or charities for terrorist financing? For example, in open media reports, there is a suggestion that the Canadian Palestinian Foundation sent monies to the Inash Al-Usra Association charity, which the CRA itself says is connected to Hamas, yet the Canadian Palestinian Foundation remains a registered charity in Quebec.

Why is that, Minister?