Evidence of meeting #4 for National Defence in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mary McFadyen  General Counsel, Office of the Ombudsman for the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces
Hilary Jaeger  Commander of the Canadian Forces Health Services Group, Director General of Health Services, and Canadian Forces Surgeon General, Department of National Defence
S. Grenier  Special Advisor, Operational Stress Injuries, Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, Department of National Defence
A. Darch  Director, Mental Health, Department of National Defence
Colonel  Retired) D. Ethell (Chair, Mental Health Advisory Committee, Veterans Affairs Canada and Department of National Defence, Department of National Defence

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rick Casson

We'll call the meeting to order. Today we're carrying on with a topic that we investigated for many months in the previous Parliament. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted Monday, February 23, 2009, we are continuing our study of the health services provided to Canadian Forces personnel, with an emphasis on post-traumatic stress disorder.

We're having this session today to help us refocus on where we are and what has transpired.

Our meeting is split into two parts today. The first hour is going to be spent with Mary McFadyen, general counsel, who is probably better known as the former interim ombudsman.

We'd like to turn the floor over to you for your comments. Then we'll open it up to questions from the different members.

So the floor is yours.

3:35 p.m.

Mary McFadyen General Counsel, Office of the Ombudsman for the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to begin by thanking the committee for inviting me to testify this afternoon. I am pleased and honoured to be here today in my capacity as General Counsel for the Office of the Ombudsman for the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces to discuss our recent report on operational stress injuries.

The ombudsman's office has been helping to ensure the fair treatment of Canadian Forces members suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder and other operational stress injuries since 2002.

At that time, our office made 31 recommendations aimed at helping the Canadian Forces identify and treat operational stress injuries, while at the same time ensuring the fair treatment of all Canadian Forces members.

Over the next few minutes, I will highlight some of the key findings from our most recent report released in December 2008 and the areas where we have found progress has been made by the Department and the Canadian Forces.

I will also underscore some of the areas where we feel more work is required.

Finally, I will highlight some new and evolving issues and problems identified during our most recent investigation.

It is clear from our most recent review that the Canadian Forces has made progress over the past few years in the way it approaches individuals with operational stress injuries. We found evidence of improvements in the Canadian Forces' attempts to prevent, identify, and treat operational stress injuries. Unfortunately, it is also clear that there continue to be cases where injured soldiers, sailors, and airmen and airwomen who have served our country with courage and dedication are slipping through the cracks of an ad hoc system.

During our investigation we discovered that more than half of our original 31 recommendations had not been implemented, either in practice or intent. I believe this has hampered the consistency of care received by the military members across the country who are suffering from mental health injuries.

We also identified a number of areas where progress continues to be slow, particularly with respect to high-level direction and national coordination, the efforts to standardize care and treatment across the Canadian Forces, and the collection of national data and statistics.

Access to quality care still depends on a number of arbitrary factors, including where the military member lives, the distance of the member's base from the nearest large city, the availability of mental health care professionals, and the attitude of the member's superiors and peers.

We were also disappointed to learn that a national database has yet to be created. This database would accurately reflect the number of Canadian Forces personnel who are affected by operational stress injuries. A tool of this kind is critical to understanding the number of Canadian Forces personnel affected by mental health injuries, the extent of the problem, and what needs to be done. Without a national database, the Canadian Forces is unable to evaluate the impact of various clinical interventions and to target education and training initiatives where they are most needed.

Regardless of where they are located, what their duties are, or who they work and train with, all Canadian Forces members are entitled to quality, consistent and timely care when they are injured—whether the injury is physical or psychological.

Some of the problems identified by our office likely could have been prevented with the full implementation of our original 31 recommendations.

At the same time, when we conducted the latest investigation, it became clear to us that new areas of concern had emerged in the six years following our original report. The environment in which Canada's military has been operating in recent years has changed dramatically, particularly in light of the level and intensity of combat operations in Afghanistan. And it is evident that the Canadian Forces and its members are strained almost to the breaking point. This strain also significantly increases the demands on families, caregivers, and mental health care providers.

Taken into account these current realities and problems, we focused on three issues that we considered to be critical in insuring quality and timely care for military members suffering from operational stress injuries.

First, there is a need to strengthen national governance and leadership related to the identification, prevention, and treatment of post-traumatic stress disorder and other operational stress injuries.

Our original report in 2002 stressed the need to appoint a senior officer of significant rank reporting directly to the Chief of the Defence Staff. This officer's primary duty would be to act as a national coordinator for all issues related to operational stress injuries, including the quality and consistency of care, diagnosis and treatment, and training and education across the Canadian Forces. The position would also serve an important practical and symbolic role in helping to put an end to the ongoing stigma associated with operational stress injuries.

Second, it is now apparent that the challenges and difficulties associated with operational stress injuries are not restricted to military personnel alone. When a Canadian Forces member suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder or another mental health injury, the whole family suffers. It may also require support and assistance for each family member.

Our investigators found a number of quality programs offered by provincial and municipal governments, local military family resource centres, and local base chaplains to support military families. Unfortunately, we found no evidence of a coordinated national approach that would ensure that military families are able to consistently access the mental health care and support they may need.

Although the department and the Canadian Forces do not have a legal responsibility in this area, there are compelling reasons for them to ensure that military families have access to timely and appropriate services and support.

First, as mental health injuries are enough the result of military service, and the direct cause of family stress, the Canadian Forces have a moral responsibility to ensure that care and treatment are provided to families.

A second, more practical reason for ensuring the care of military family members is that it could reduce the level of stress on the operational stress injury sufferer and speed up recovery time.

Finally, as part of the broader investigation we also found that much more needs to be done to deal with stress and burnout among Canadian Forces caregivers. This stress is created by a lack of resources and high caseloads. The majority of caregivers interviewed by our office stated that personal stress or burnout was a pressing concern to them, to the point that it was leading some of them to quit the military.

The department and Canadian Forces had informed us, during our investigation, of their intention to hire an additional 218 mental health professionals by the end of March 2009. I understand now that the deadline has been extended to 2010.

Hiring more mental health care workers would be a positive step towards resolving the issue. However, we have concerns that it may be difficult for the Canadian Forces, as just one of the employers across the country vying for health care professionals, to fulfill this commitment, even with this extension to 2010. This makes it even more essential for the military to retain the mental health care professionals already working in the defence community.

Given the very dangerous and demanding nature of the current mission in Afghanistan, it is clear that post-traumatic stress disorder and other operational stress injuries will become an even greater challenge for the military for many years to come. In many respects, this will be a generational challenge for the department, the Canadian Forces, and the Government of Canada as a whole.

We acknowledge that the Canadian Forces has made some progress over the past six years in generally dealing with the issues and challenges related to post-traumatic stress disorder and other operational stress injuries. However, much more needs to be done to ensure that Canadian Forces members suffering from operational stress injuries are diagnosed and receive the care and treatment they need.

Addressing these outstanding issues and implementing the recommendations made in our report will help our Canadian Forces members in many years to come, whether in the Canadian Forces, if they stay, or in their lives as civilians.

At this time, Mr. Chair, I stand ready to take any questions you have. Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rick Casson

Thank you very much.

Committee members, this is a seven-minute round. We'll start with Mr. Wilfert.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I thank the general counsel for coming here today. I want to congratulate you and your colleagues for the report, which I think is extremely important. Given the fact that there were 31 original recommendations and we have heard some comments from the government and the media, can you tell us whether you have received any formal response from the government on those 31 recommendations, of which over half have not been implemented, and on your new three areas of concern?

3:40 p.m.

General Counsel, Office of the Ombudsman for the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces

Mary McFadyen

The process in our office when we've finished a systemic report like this, in order to be fair, open, and transparent, is we provide a copy of our draft report to the Canadian Forces in order that they have a chance to review what we're intending to provide to the minister so they can comment on it.

During that process we did receive some comments from the Canadian Forces and reviewed them, and we still determined that our recommendations were needed.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Through you, Mr. Chairman, there seems to be a disconnect in the fact that we have heard testimony that indicates that higher echelons within the military are acknowledging some people are falling through the system, but generally the system is working well. And yet from testimony from those who have come back, particularly from Afghanistan, it is not. There is also an issue of discrepancies between east and west in Canada. Could you comment on that?

3:45 p.m.

General Counsel, Office of the Ombudsman for the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces

Mary McFadyen

Certainly during our investigation we interviewed 360 people throughout Canada in various bases, health caregivers and people suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. It was certainly our finding that it is true, it depends on where you live sometimes if you're able to get the care you need. And it is a problem that we thought it was important that the Canadian Forces address.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Through you, Mr. Chairman, one of the issues that is of concern to me, and certainly to my colleagues, I know, is the issue of a national database and the inability, really, to be able to target education and the inability, as you say, to deal with clinical interventions.

Can you comment as to any feedback on that, and why up to this point there has been a failure to implement?

3:45 p.m.

General Counsel, Office of the Ombudsman for the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces

Mary McFadyen

That will probably be a question that specifically should be asked of the Surgeon General. However, our understanding and what we were advised during our investigation was that they are planning to computerize the medical records within DND. However, unfortunately, my understanding is that it will take until 2011 until that will actually be implemented. It was supposed to be 2008--that's what we were told--but my understanding is that it's now 2011.

It was one of our original recommendations, and we stressed it again in this follow-up report, that it's hard to know how to deal with a problem unless you know the extent of the problem. And then once you know the extent, you can determine where you need to target resources, education, and training. We thought that was a very important recommendation worth stating again.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

I do, too, and my concern is that the minister was here with supplementary estimates, and obviously in terms of the priorities and needs within the forces, and particularly with regard to this issue—which I think more Canadians are becoming aware of because of the number of people affected when returning from Afghanistan—this should in fact be a priority. I would certainly hope we'll follow that up with the minister and with the deputy minister in terms of really pushing this up, because obviously 2011 is still too far away, given the fact that you have indicated, quite rightly, that this recommendation has been around for a while now.

That's certainly, Mr. Chairman, something we should be pushing, because without that information it's pretty hard for us to do many of the other things that I think there's a broad consensus on this committee need to be done. You need to know what you're dealing with before you can actually move ahead. So again, I appreciate that recommendation and coming back to that as well.

One of the issues deals with the reserves and the regular forces, and obviously there seemed to be an inadequate response to reservists in particular not having the same kind of network that colleagues in the regular forces have. Again, you point out particularly the need to maintain a type of standards. Can you enlighten us a little more on that from your findings?

3:45 p.m.

General Counsel, Office of the Ombudsman for the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces

Mary McFadyen

The issue with respect to health care that goes to regular force members and reserve members?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Versus those in the reserves.

3:45 p.m.

General Counsel, Office of the Ombudsman for the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces

Mary McFadyen

Yes. In our report that we released in April 2008 we addressed that issue. We found that currently the system they have and the regulations they have are very muddled. We had health care workers telling us they didn't really understand who was entitled to what. And it was certainly true when we did our investigation.

Right now health care is tied to your contract as opposed to what you're doing. If you are hurt as a result of what you're required to do as a result of military duty, the Canadian Forces should be responsible for ensuring you get the proper health care and treatment you need. We have asked them to review all those regulations and policies and we have asked them to ensure they're treated fairly, no matter what. If they're working, if it's military duty related, the military should be responsible for their health care.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

I think your comments on the medical and dental care provisions for reservists was in fact very timely. I think the issue of clear, user-friendly terms, as you say in your report, is important, because again, some people were not clear as to what they were really entitled to when they came back. So again, it's another area we need to really stress as we go forward with our own report.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rick Casson

You still have a little time, Mr. Wilfert.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

You're being very generous today, Mr. Chair.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rick Casson

Well, no, the clock is.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

You're very kind.

Also, through you, Mr. Chairman, on the issue you raised today, there are three new issues. A concern we certainly have is that the majority of recommendations have not been adhered to yet, and then we have three new ones, three very important areas, particularly in light of Afghanistan. In terms of your own timeframe, do you see a timeframe that could be developed to deal with these three areas in terms of their priority, given the other recommendations that are out there?

3:50 p.m.

General Counsel, Office of the Ombudsman for the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces

Mary McFadyen

As for timeframe, I guess that's for the Canadian Forces to determine. We certainly intend to keep at them on this, because we feel they were very important issues that arose during our follow-up review of the original 31 recommendations.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Do you feel you are getting the kind of cooperation you need? I realize in some cases things haven't moved forward, but in general?

3:50 p.m.

General Counsel, Office of the Ombudsman for the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces

Mary McFadyen

They have commenced a lot of new initiatives. Right now, from what I've seen on paper, these are just getting started. I think it's important that lots of times policies are made over here at 101 Colonel By, but they don't necessarily get down to the ground. I think it's really important that we make sure there is action taken on their words, their commitments to families and to health care givers, and that we actually see some action.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rick Casson

Thank you.

To the Bloc, Monsieur Paillé.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Pascal-Pierre Paillé Bloc Louis-Hébert, QC

First, congratulations on your work. I am a new member on this committee, but if I understand correctly you have taken over on a temporary basis, yet done very effective work, which is greatly appreciated.

I read in the report that the clinic at St. Anne's Hospital can take in some ten patients for eight weeks. What is the current status of the clinic? Is the work completed? Can a maximum of patients be taken into the hospital?

3:50 p.m.

General Counsel, Office of the Ombudsman for the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces

Mary McFadyen

Across the country, there are several hospital programs conducted by the Canadian Forces and the Department of Veteran Affairs. I believe that a new clinic was opened yesterday in Ottawa for people suffering from operational stress injuries. There is still a long way to go, but we are pleased to see the progress that the Canadian Forces has made in this area.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Pascal-Pierre Paillé Bloc Louis-Hébert, QC

It would appear that the government, in the 2007 budget, planned to open a network of some ten clinics. Has any progress been made in this regard? Could you give us more details as far as clinics are concerned across Canada?