Evidence of meeting #108 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was training.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
General Dallaire, you mentioned, right before we were cut off, that you had been a commander at the time the Somalia peacekeeping mission was going on. Right before we were getting to the nugget of the mission failure, the Somalia inquiry was abruptly cut off.
Can you tell us what would have relayed the causal factor to that failure? What was about to be revealed and then was abruptly cut down?
12:45 p.m.
Founder, Roméo Dallaire Child Soldiers Initiative, As an Individual
I went to Africa and then came back and was deputy commander of the army and was caught up in the whole judicial thing, court martials and so on.
What was needed to be found was found. We had a rogue unit. Many of us were responsible for putting some of our more difficult soldiers in difficult cases with weak leadership into an organization that was built to be autonomous and to be front line. The unit was not sustainable in its internal capabilities and became rogue.
You have two options. You either put it down to nil strength and move everybody around or you bring in a whole new capability. At the time, we were being cut by 33%, if you remember, so there was no way of rebuilding it, so we essentially spread it.
The commission had already found all that material. It was sniffing...I don't know. An extraordinary piece of analysis has been done on where they were going to continue evolving, but in our estimation, leadership failed.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Did the use of mefloquine play a role in that?
12:45 p.m.
Founder, Roméo Dallaire Child Soldiers Initiative, As an Individual
The damn mefloquine.... Halfway through my mission in Rwanda, I wrote to NDHQ and said that mefloquine was causing me significant problems with sleep, being conscious, and stomach problems, and I said I had to get off of it because it wasn't helping.
I was told very clearly that if I didn't take mefloquine I'd be court-martialled if I got malaria.
That stuff is junk. It was a factor, but not an overriding one that would bring a unit to do some of the actions that were taken by subordinate commanders who were out of control.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
I've taken this to heart that it's our duty to inform constituents on matters of security among all the other things we do.
Dr. Whitman, you relayed how the cybersecurity...the role you played was relatively new to the military dimension other than hardening their own assets. It took a number of years to get the military and government as well to openly discuss it and what the role should be. Again, there has to be an offence to be able to play defence there.
Now we're seeing that the use of artificial intelligence is evolving in military fields. Back in the spring session, I moved a motion that the committee should study the use of artificial intelligence as it applies to defence. Since I made a motion back then, I've decided that I'm going to put the motion forward now.
I move:
That the Standing Committee on National Defence undertake a study on the application of artificial intelligence in unmanned aerial, naval, terrestrial vehicles, robotics technological development, weapons systems and Canadian Armed Forces personnel thought analysis, and that the committee commence planning the study during the final stages of The Peacekeeping study for study immediately after.
It's becoming increasingly important. Since the notice was first gained, we have Elon Musk who described artificial intelligence as the biggest risk we face as a civilization. Dr. Jim Al-Khalili, a physicist from the University of Surrey, says technological progress toward artificial intelligence is happening too fast and without proper scrutiny or regulation.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
But I'm moving the motion, so....
He also stated he is certain the most important conversation we should be having is about the future of artificial intelligence. The race of artificial intelligence in civilian and military applications is already being hailed as the next space race, with the United States, China and Russia all actively developing artificial intelligence technologies for the battlefield. We have many more examples of this.
With that, I've moved the motion.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr
Is there any discussion?
You're going to see a little of the democratic process working here.
Mr. Gerretsen.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
I'm sure General Dallaire is used to it.
Mr. Chair, given the fact that we have these two incredible witnesses here, I want to maximize the time we have with them. We can talk about this motion at a later time. I move adjournment on this debate.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr
All right. That is dilatory.
(Motion agreed to)
For the last question on this topic, we'll go to Mr. Fisher.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
Thank you very much.
Thank you to Mr. Gerretsen for doing that so I get a chance to ask another question.
Is our current role in Mali best utilizing the training that our troops have, or should we be considering a different contribution?
12:50 p.m.
Founder, Roméo Dallaire Child Soldiers Initiative, As an Individual
The commitment of those Chinooks to that mission is by far the most significant force multiplier to that mission. I was in the Congo with U.S. special forces going after Joseph Kony. We knew where he was, with the Lord's Resistance Army and so on, but we couldn't get there because we didn't have the lift. We have 15 of those now. I was always a strong proponent for the Chinooks. That, in my opinion, at this time, looking at what we can do, plus the Entebbe strategic lift capability, are perfect.
You're meeting a critical operational requirement, and on top of that you're also doing medevacs. My soldiers had no medevac. The only thing they knew was that if they could hear a Hercules land under fire, they had a chance of surviving. Some didn't, because the Hercules didn't....
Those who are there will have a chance, because that Chinook and those helicopters will be able to get in and save them. That, for a force commander, or any commander, is an overriding factor.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
Perfect. Thank you, General.
Is there any time left?
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
Dr. Whitman, I want to ask about the Vancouver principles. How does that compare, or does it compare at all, with NATO's standard operating procedure on child soldiers?
12:50 p.m.
Executive Director, Roméo Dallaire Child Soldiers Initiative, As an Individual
It is in line with the standard operating procedure. I helped with the writing of the standard operating procedures for NATO, and then followed on with helping with the Vancouver principles, so I'm speaking from knowledge of the information put into both of those things.
For comparison, both elements talk about the need to operationalize it and treat it differently from the women, peace and security agenda, to make sure that there are aspects of understanding, early warning, and to have a wide range of practical scenario-based training. They're in synergy with each other. The only difference is that NATO is done at the level of a NATO SOP, and what Vancouver principles is requesting is that nations take that responsibility on, nation by nation, to ensure they are already prepared before they go to pre-deployment training.
12:55 p.m.
Founder, Roméo Dallaire Child Soldiers Initiative, As an Individual
We should be helping them to write it and to implement it.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
That's where I was going. We have the ability to really lead internationally on this problem.
12:55 p.m.
Executive Director, Roméo Dallaire Child Soldiers Initiative, As an Individual
That's right.
12:55 p.m.
Founder, Roméo Dallaire Child Soldiers Initiative, As an Individual
Yes, that's right.
12:55 p.m.
Executive Director, Roméo Dallaire Child Soldiers Initiative, As an Individual
In our work at the Dallaire initiative, for example, we have MOUs with five different entities right now, where we're already writing doctrine. Sierra Leone passed through doctrine in December as a result of the work we did with the Canadian Armed Forces. We just completed an integration package for the Sierra Leone armed forces, which they are now going to activate. Rwanda is similar. We've been doing some work in Jordan as well, as the general said, on the same level.
That pattern is something we know how to do and we can continue it. It's really just a matter of will and resources, and ensuring that this is a step forward that we want to take.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
Thank you for making Canada a leader in such an important topic. Thank you very much for being here today.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr
Senator and General Dallaire and Dr. Whitman, thank you both for coming. Your input adds a lot of value to this report. We couldn't really have a discussion like this without considering your recommendations and your input.
Thank you very much for being here.
General Dallaire, I heard that you were looking for a copy of the report we did on NATO. The clerk was kind enough to send for a hard copy, so I'm happy to provide that to you after we adjourn.
Thank you again for coming. We are adjourned.