Evidence of meeting #112 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was women.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Alan Okros  Professor, Canadian Forces College, As an Individual
Grazia Scoppio  Professor, Dean of Continuing Studies, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
Richard Martel  Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, CPC
Julie Dzerowicz  Davenport, Lib.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

I call the meeting to order.

Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the defence committee this morning.

11:05 a.m.

A voice

The best committee?

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

I said, “defence committee”. I know it sounds like “the best committee”. Actually, both of those are true.

It's our first meeting on our study on diversity within the Canadian Armed Forces. We have a couple of witnesses today. I'd like to thank them for appearing. We have Dr. Okros, Professor, Canadian Forces College. We also have Dr. Scoppio, Professor, Dean of Continuing Studies, Royal Military College of Canada.

I think I'll yield the floor to Dr. Okros to start. Sir, I'll give you up to 10 minutes with your opening remarks. Thank you for coming.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

I have a point of order.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Yes.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Would you please read the motion that was passed to commence this study? We have some new people here, and I think they haven't heard what the original motion for this study actually says.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

That's not a point of order.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

That isn't a point of order, actually. Do you have a problem with the rules or the standing orders? That's a point of order.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

No, no, I don't. It's just that the title doesn't encompass the full scope of the study. That's why—

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

I just read the title from the order of reference that was distributed to you, which we agreed to. We can change the title, as in any other study.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Okay. That's fine, just so long as we can address all the points in the motion.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Fair enough.

Doctor, the floor is yours.

11:05 a.m.

Dr. Alan Okros Professor, Canadian Forces College, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's my pleasure to provide comments to the committee on the important topic of diversity within the Canadian Armed Forces.

I will make my comments in English.

As background, while serving in the CAF, I started doing research and contributing to policy related to diversity in the early 1980s, and I have continued to conduct diversity research as well as teaching on leadership and diversity at the Canadian Forces College.

Over this period, I have observed the CAF evolve from reluctant implementation of changes in response to external direction to seeking to proactively lead, based on military requirements and social alignment. I see this having occurred through three phases of philosophy and policy.

The first was tolerance and accommodation. The focus was on removing overt barriers and providing individuals with accommodations based on justified needs, and generally, as required under law. This was done, however, with the caveat that it have minimal impact on operational effectiveness. This was best illustrated in the actions taken following the 1989 Canadian Human Rights Tribunal decision on women in combat occupations, to which I contributed.

The second phase was a shift to acceptance and integration. The shift here was the CAF's recognition that those who didn’t fit the dominant norm—specifically women and those from differing cultures, religious beliefs, sexual orientations and gendered identities—deserved the right to serve and the opportunity to progress in a career. These efforts were visible in the evolution of the CAF employment equity plans, updates to military personnel policies and publication of CAF doctrine on the profession of arms and leadership, to which I also contributed.

The challenge in this phase was the fact that efforts to achieve integration were more often experienced by these individuals as assimilation. To fit in and advance, they had to adopt the norms of the dominant group, which was male, straight, Judeo-Christian, culturally white and generally anglophone. Simply put, the others had to adjust to blend in, while the majority did not have to make substantive changes to who they were or how they performed their military duties.

I see the current phase as intended to move to understanding and inclusion. The objective is to enable the CAF to enhance operational effectiveness by drawing on the differing perspectives, world views, cultural knowledge and personal perspectives contained in the rich diversity of Canadian society. I would offer that this intent is admirable and valuable and should be supported. I would also offer that I have not found a private sector organization or a military internationally that is seeking to achieve comparable goals. Amongst NATO nations, Canada serves as the exemplar.

Achieving this objective, however, will not be simple, easy or quick. It represents four significant shifts in military thought and military practice. I’ll describe each with comments on the challenges the CAF faces.

The first is an expansion from the narrow consideration of employment equity-designated groups to a broader recognition of all aspects of diversity. While easy to describe, and supported by Status of Women Canada materials on “GBA+”, or gender-based analysis-plus diversity, it's not easy to live. How do I, as an older, privileged, white male fully understand the perspectives of a young, marginalized woman of colour? Fortunately, there are a host of academics, community organizations and indigenous leaders who are prepared to assist the CAF in coming to fully appreciate what diversity really means and how it is really lived. Efforts to facilitate these dialogues should be encouraged.

The second is to move from an emphasis on conformity to valuing differences. The challenge is that the CAF necessarily engages in formal processes to convert the civilian to the soldier, sailor or aviator. Entry-level socialization is intended to instill the military values, beliefs and identity that the CAF has chosen to impart to all who join, so the question now becomes this: how can diverse Canadians retain the very perspective that the CAF now says it values when they are subject to rather intense pressures to adopt a new military identity and a particular military world view?

The third requires a shift from how the CAF recruits to how the CAF conducts operations. A common statement in the military is the importance of unity of thought, purpose and action. The CAF diversity strategy suggests the retention of unity of purpose—a common end goal that all are committed to achieving—but also to allow different ways of thinking about it and different ways of achieving it. A key issue is consideration of what happens when one of the members of the team says, “Boss, my moral compass is pointing in a different direction.”

The fourth—and, I would suggest, the most important—is the need to shift from a focus on understanding these diverse “others” to understanding “us”. By this, I mean the construction of the ideal service member—the image of the prototype desired and rewarded soldier, sailor, aviator, general, or flag officer. This has implications for military leadership and criteria for promotions, but also requires individuals to reflect on who they are and who they have become.

With these comments on the current context and challenges, I would like to address some specific issues the committee has identified, starting with Operation Honour.

As the committee is aware, General Vance has made his intent very clear, along with his offer to assist those unable to meet CAF standards to find another line of work. His leadership is an essential element of addressing the issues that the CAF—and I would offer, many other organizations across Canada—are facing.

I’ll provide two comments. First, as I discussed with Justice Deschamps when she conducted her review, the fact that those who are on the receiving end of inappropriate behaviour do not formally report it does not mean they do nothing about it. Women in particular have learned how to use CAF informal social systems to send strong messages to others about what is and is not acceptable or welcomed.

Second, I would restate her characterization of the CAF having a sexualized culture to having a masculinist culture. Both men and women can perform their military duties in a masculine manner but, to return to the diversity strategy, the CAF needs to recognize and enable alternate ways of performing military duties and conducting military activities. To be clear, my call is for men in particular to be willing and able to expand their military world view and practices of leadership to embrace what are commonly seen as feminine approaches. This touches on the issue of mission success. Achieving the United Nations' women, peace and security agenda, the Prime Minister’s international assistance policy objectives, the goals under “Strong, Secure, Engaged” and related directives from NATO and the chief of defence staff will require military members to deliver human security at the level of the individual, their family and their community. This starts with empathy and understanding—facets that are typically seen as the strengths of feminists’ perspectives.

This is broader than addressing internal dynamics. The link is that the critical analysis of masculinist practices and perspectives will assist all to be able to better recognize and prevent certain inappropriate behaviours internally within the CAF while also contributing to military mission success when deployed.

I’ll offer three observations on best practices for recruitment and retention.

The first is that we should be talking about belonging and advancement. Those who have been marginalized are not simply asking to be admitted to the military. They're seeking to be recognized as valued members of the team with the opportunity to contribute fully to military success. They wish to advance in rank and responsibility while being recognized for who they are. Doing so requires a comprehensive GBA+ analysis to remove implicit barriers to progression.

The second is that the CAF, along with the public service, needs to shift from a paternalistic approach of deciding to offer a millennial a job, to providing the compelling rationale for why an enthusiastic young Canadian should invest their skills in our enterprise.

Third, drawing on the observations of a talented major who examined this issue, I would offer that the CAF leaders need to shift from speaking about women in the military to talking to women in the military.

Together, these three observations lead to the suggestion that the CAF likely needs to review four key functions.

The first is assessments at recruiting. Of the various factors used to select individuals for enrolment, does the CAF have the right balance?

Second is entry-level socialization: Is the military using the right processes to communicate the right messages to diverse young Canadians about how the profession serves Canada and how they serve in the profession?

Third is leadership. Does the CAF leadership model need to be updated to facilitate more inclusive approaches?

Fourth is education. Is current professional military education delivering the types of learning to achieve understanding and inclusion?

I hope that this important study will assist in enabling the CAF to achieve the desired goals.

Thank you

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Thank you.

Go ahead, Dr. Scoppio.

11:10 a.m.

Dr. Grazia Scoppio Professor, Dean of Continuing Studies, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual

Thank you.

Good morning, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. Thank you for inviting me.

I am Grace Scoppio, Professor at the Royal Military College of Canada, dean of continuing studies, and I teach with the department of defence studies. Among other courses, one is a course on diversity, which is actually a very well-attended course.

Over the past several years, I've been conducting research in Canada and elsewhere on diversity in the military, including in the Canadian Armed Forces. Therefore, I was invited here based on my research and expertise. I will speak on my own behalf and not on behalf of RMC or the Department of National Defence.

Research conducted over the years shows that there have been efforts in the Canadian Armed Forces to comply with employment equity legislation and enhance diversity within the organization, through different recruiting strategies, accommodation policies and various training programs. Although many steps forward have been taken, there are still gaps and challenges that need to be addressed.

Although employment equity policies are important tools to level the playing field, compliance with legislation is only the first step toward attaining a more diverse workforce and a more diverse military. The next step is seeing diversity as a strength and as value added for the organization, and ultimately changing the organizational culture.

In Canada, all military occupations are open to women. It's been so since the eighties, including combat-related occupations, so in that respect we were leaders, and we still are. Having said that, Canada does not fare better, say, in comparison with the U.S., where the combat occupations were only recently opened to women. When we look at female representation, for example, in 2016 women represented 14.4% of the regular force in the Canadian Armed Forces. In 2017, this has increased to 15.5% of the regular force. In the U.S. military, women are 17%, so despite the fact that we opened occupations well ahead of the U.S., we're not faring better in terms of female representation in the regular force.

These findings suggest that other possible barriers to women exist that go beyond legal barriers, such as requirement formability in the military profession—the fact that many occupations are non-traditional for women—and an organizational culture that, in fact, is not open enough toward women and other minority groups.

That brings me to visible minorities. I've spoken about this at a presentation to the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration, at the House of Commons, regarding Bill C-425, an act to amend the Citizenship Act. That was in March 2013.

One of the barriers to increasing the visible minority population within the military is citizenship. Again, in the U.S., many occupations are open to non-citizens, and in fact, their citizenship is expedited once they join. The Canadian Armed Forces has talked about this, but today if you look at the website for recruiting, you'll see the priority is Canadian citizens.

The CAF has established ambitious 10-year employment equity goals. Again, progress has been made, but the goals are still far from being reached. Most recently, the chief of defence staff directed an increase in the representation of women by 1% per year for the next 10 years, to achieve 25%.

I'll talk to you briefly about my research. My largest study was in 2007. I compared the Canadian Armed Forces with the U.S. as well as the U.K. and the Australian defence forces. That study made several recommendations. I'm happy to say that in 2016, the number one recommendation pointed out that the CAF did not have a strategic vision for diversity, a strategic document for diversity, and my colleague Dr. Okros mentioned that we now do have that document. I was happy to contribute to it.

The essence of the document is that it goes beyond employment equity and it is a value-based diversity strategy. I'm happy, almost 10 years after my study, to see that come to light.

I've also looked at the integration of indigenous members within the military. A well-known best practice comes to us from New Zealand. I was very fortunate to actually see it with my own eyes in a trip to New Zealand, where they have succeeded in successfully integrating Maori members, and not just as a token number. In fact, they have a significant representation, in particular in the New Zealand army, and they've integrated cultural practices within their military. Again, I've written about this.

There are differences, clearly. We have a much more diverse indigenous population. The Maori population is a lot more cohesive, as well as their language, but nonetheless it is a best practice that would be important for Canada to look at.

My recent research concerns diversity in the Canadian military colleges. Currently, I'm leading a three-year project with a four-member research team investigating possible gender bias in the recruiting for the military colleges, as well as the overall experience of officer cadets at the colleges.

I am happy to answer any questions. I will stop here. Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Thank you for your opening remarks.

We'll go to seven-minute questions.

If anyone sees this, if you haven't been to this committee before, which I don't think you have, this is just a 30-second warning. Could you then wind down what you're saying so I can move along to the next question so everyone will get their amount of time.

Having said that, I'll go to my first seven-minute question. It will be MP Robillard.

The floor is yours.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for their excellent presentations. My questions will be in French, and they will not be for a specific witness.

What can the Canadian Armed Forces do to eliminate the barriers to the recruitment and retention of members of the LGBTQ2 community?

11:20 a.m.

Professor, Dean of Continuing Studies, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual

Dr. Grazia Scoppio

I forgot to say that I can answer all your questions in English or French, but I will let my colleague answer because he has more experience with that group.

11:20 a.m.

Professor, Canadian Forces College, As an Individual

Dr. Alan Okros

I will, if I can, respond in English.

The first comment I would make is that although we use acronyms that have several letters to them I think it is important to differentiate between sexual orientation and gendered identity. The military has been addressing issues of sexual orientation since 1992. I would suggest internally within the military there certainly is a level of understanding of differences around sexual orientation and, consistent with Canadian society, a strong degree of acceptance. Those internally within the military recognize individuals have the right to serve and they recognize the differentiation between their professional life and their private life.

For gendered identity, again I have done research with trans members of the Canadian military, as well as other militaries. I would suggest there is work that needs to be done. Again, it's reflective of Canadian society. There is not yet the understanding of gender and gender expression. I think as young people start joining the military, with some of the research referring to the youth cohort as being more gender fluid, that, I think, is going to be a challenge for the military because we are used to people presenting themselves one way. I assume you are a man, you are going to behave in masculine ways, and I get confused when you start presenting yourself in feminine ways, so there are going to be challenges within the military on that group.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

What cultural programs and services are offered specifically to indigenous members of the Canadian Armed Forces?

What else could be done to enhance their experience?

11:20 a.m.

Professor, Dean of Continuing Studies, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual

Dr. Grazia Scoppio

There are indigenous recruitment programs that are quite successful. Bold Eagle, an army program, was the first, but there are also programs such as Raven, in the Royal Canadian Navy. The Air Force also has a program, but I forget what it is called. The Royal Military College of Canada also has ALOY, the aboriginal leadership opportunities year.

These programs are specifically designed to give indigenous persons an idea of military life. After doing these programs, participants often go to a recruitment centre.

The organization does not, however, have a specific aboriginal culture program for all members. Some programs are more specific, and there are certainly various programs to educate recruiters about different populations.

I would like to comment on your previous question. In our study, we had a question about gender, but there were not enough people who answered “other” for us to do a full analysis. That is why I let Mr. Okros answer because, in our study, we were not able to study that population for a lack of data.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

To what extent do certain recent initiatives, such as the appointment of the diversity champion and the diversity strategy and action plan, make the Canadian Armed Forces more attractive to members of visible minorities?

11:25 a.m.

Professor, Canadian Forces College, As an Individual

Dr. Alan Okros

You start, and I will follow.

11:25 a.m.

Professor, Dean of Continuing Studies, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual

Dr. Grazia Scoppio

Unless individuals are part of the organization, they would not necessarily know that the forces now have a diversity strategy. As I said earlier, one of the key strategies to increase the representation of visible minorities is extending recruitment to non-citizens. You have to understand that, even if a person is a Canadian citizen today, a security check has to go back several years. If that person was in another country five years ago, the security check can take a long time. In some cases, it can take two years. In the meantime, a member of a visible minority might find another job.

This diversity strategy is broader than the current one because it is part of the organization, which is not necessarily well understood by someone finishing high school who goes to a recruitment centre.

11:25 a.m.

Professor, Canadian Forces College, As an Individual

Dr. Alan Okros

The other observation I would make, of course, is the issue of urbanization. A large portion of the population of visible minorities live in major urban centres. There are a number of factors that influence whether they are interested in joining the regular force, and this is particularly one of the areas where the experiences, the policies and the success of the reserve force are leading the regular force. The number is much higher in the reserve forces, and the regular force is learning from them.