Evidence of meeting #112 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was women.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:55 a.m.
Professor, Dean of Continuing Studies, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
Are you afraid that other groups will be neglected if we set a target to recruit a certain percentage of women each year?
11:55 a.m.
Professor, Dean of Continuing Studies, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
No, I don't think so. Men will always apply. We are simply trying to attract more women.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
11:55 a.m.
Julie Dzerowicz Davenport, Lib.
Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for the excellent conversation.
I have tons of questions, so if I can loop back around, I'd love to.
Ms. Scoppio, you mentioned that you need a critical mass to create change. Typically, when we talk about women creating change, we talk about 30%, but 25% falls short of that. We're not going to get to that critical mass, and we're talking about 25% by 2026. Do you think our targets should be higher?
11:55 a.m.
Professor, Dean of Continuing Studies, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
I think it's a good first step that we have this goal. I think once we get there, we should definitely aim higher. I see no reason that very qualified, very intelligent, well-educated young women are not knocking more at the doors of the recruiting centres, except for the reasons that we talked about. I think 25% is a very good first step, but, for sure, you're right: I think we need to aim higher once we get there.
Noon
Davenport, Lib.
I used to be in the business world. Every world I've been in has been a male-dominated world. I feel as if we've gone through all the same questions, and to be honest, I feel we have all of the factors. We have a lot of knowledge that could actually lead us to success much more rapidly, instead of feeling as if we're reinventing the wheel in every single sector. I know there are elements that are special, like some of the elements you were talking about—the travel, being overseas away from family. I know there are some different elements here.
Here's my next question. You also mention, Ms. Scoppio, that we need to have a critical mass of women to change culture. Do you not also think we need significant leadership promoting that change as well? Do we have the right incentives right now for the leaders to actually get to this change as quickly as possible?
Noon
Professor, Dean of Continuing Studies, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
That's a very good question. We talked about the ticks in the box for promotion, for example, but one of the things that would be a great incentive for males and females in uniform to promote diversity would be if it were right there as one of the things they need to do to move further in the organization. That could mean promoting an activity. It can take a lot of different shapes and forms. Right now, there are no such criteria.
October 18th, 2018 / noon
Davenport, Lib.
In the business world, we actually tell senior managers, “Within your department, you're low in terms of moving toward equity”, and then we give bonuses and incentives for them to get there They have to report back up to the most senior levels of the financial institution about why they're not achieving their objectives. Is that a model you think we can adopt within the military?
Noon
Professor, Dean of Continuing Studies, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
As you know, we are public servants, so within a government public service environment, bonuses are very difficult to apply.
Noon
Davenport, Lib.
Just to be clear, I'm not looking to give bonuses, so I don't want this to be a big debate. It's more to have the incentive structures, with accountability at the different levels and some sort of penalty if you're not achieving your targets, and you're given all the tools you need to achieve your target.
Noon
Professor, Dean of Continuing Studies, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
That's the key right there. I always say vision without resources is hallucination, so we can have a great strategic document, but if there are no resources to achieve that vision, then we're not going to get there.
Noon
Professor, Canadian Forces College, As an Individual
With the way the military functions—and I'll go back to the 25% to 30% as well—I would suggest the key driver is when we have men internally within the military who say they can't get the job done unless there are women on the team with them. It's when we have men saying they need a female CO. That kind of leadership is what we need. That's where the conversion needs to take place.
It's not the business structures. I've looked at some of them, particularly the banking sector, the financial sector. It's a different construct in the military, and it's why I made the comment in my opening statement about the need for people to be accepted, to be included and to belong. That's where the military is going to make the change. It's when people look around and say they don't have the right team, the right mix of talent.
Noon
Professor, Dean of Continuing Studies, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
If I may, Mr. Chairman, I just want to add one more thing.
My background is actually in education, so I'm always an advocate for the education piece. I was very lucky. When I was in the U.K., I participated in a training program in which very high-level admirals and generals were sitting right beside very high-level defence executives doing diversity training. It was very well done.
We also need an education piece, as we know, and that education piece cannot be a canned PowerPoint presentation after which everybody says they are trained in diversity. It has to go beyond that, and it has to happen at all levels of the organization, including at the very high levels, so that there is education and training to the generals, admirals and defence executives and everybody is on the same page.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank our witnesses for being here.
Let me follow up on that, because I was just trying to think about the work you guys do at CFC. You do all that high-level training of generals and colonels who are hoping to be generals, but to carry out the full strategy throughout the entire organization, you also have to get middle management involved. Are you guys doing anything at all in providing this type of training and reprogramming the thought process within middle management, such as our NCOs?
12:05 p.m.
Professor, Canadian Forces College, As an Individual
I have two comments.
As you recognize, some of these are more the responsibility of the individuals responsible for these programs. However, yes, there are definitely programs bringing this forward and trying to ensure that those who are moving up to the middle levels and preparing for the more senior levels are being exposed to these perspectives.
As I said in my opening statement, these different perspectives are not just about dealing with the internal dynamics within the military; this is about setting the military up for success in the kinds of missions the military is undertaking.
As a faculty member at the Canadian Forces College, I know the majors or the colonels and the public service equivalents who are attending programs are definitely having these conversations. There are definitely perspectives they are being exposed to. They have to have this in order to be successful as senior leaders. The same is happening at the Osside Institute for non-commissioned members.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Good. I was wondering what was being done there.
One of the things I am always proud of is that the most decorated indigenous soldier in Canadian history, Sergeant Tommy Prince, comes from Brokenhead Ojibway nation in my riding. He has inspired lots of members of the community to be involved in the armed forces, and not just here in Canada; right now, two are serving in the United States.
We've briefly talked about these youth programs such as Bold Eagle, Raven and Black Bear as part of the aboriginal leadership opportunities program. We have the CAF aboriginal entry program. Can we do more?
When I meet with the first nation communities in my riding, there are youths who have participated in programs like Bold Eagle. You look at participation in the Ranger program, and if you look at the reserves, the reserves are often a great place for people to become full-time soldiers. It bleeds off the reserve force, but it builds up the regular force.
Should we do more work in the Rangers, maybe making them into more of a militia rather than a constable service?
12:05 p.m.
Professor, Dean of Continuing Studies, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
I'm not sure about the Rangers specifically because, as you know, the great majority of the Rangers are indigenous. In terms of whether we can do more, I looked at this in my research, and different organizations do different types of recruiting programs.
The ALOY is a year long. The other ones are a few weeks. Sometimes, as you know, a youth's time is very limited. They might have a summer job or whatever. I think they could do much shorter programs, and they could do different groups. It could be a couple of days, three or four days. One week they could target indigenous youth, and another week they could target visible minorities. They could be very short, just getting out there and getting the youth interested in the organization. If they don't know about it, if they don't try it, they might not buy it.
12:05 p.m.
Professor, Canadian Forces College, As an Individual
I was one of the two individuals responsible for developing the ALOY program and putting the ideas forward, and it came from consultations with elders. One of the key things they were talking about is their desire for young people to develop leadership skills. For the military to develop leadership capacity in young indigenous individuals would be a valuable thing.
The second part that goes with that is the recognition that the methods they use to lead are not necessarily the ones the military recognizes. One of the reasons for ALOY is to expose the remainder of the cadets at RMC—and there are some active programs to do so—to understanding indigenous cultures and different ways in which people can lead, ways people can create teams and ways people can bring people to success. It's about learning internally for the remainder of the military as well.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
In previous comments, we talked about how the U.S. does very aggressive recruiting. It takes soldiers who have just returned from theatre, puts them in the recruiting office, and they're out there selling the U.S. armed services. We haven't taken that approach of having those master corporals, sergeants and warrant officers sitting there telling their stories and inspiring the next generation to sign up.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr
I'm going to have to halt it there. We'll have time to go back, and if you'd like to speak to us again I'll give you some more time.