Evidence of meeting #112 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was women.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:25 a.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for your presentations.
First of all, how conducive to setting a good example for our troops, given the need for Operation Honour, is the rationale the Prime Minister gave for groping a member of the media while at the Kokanee beer festival?
Just as a reminder, when he was asked about his behaviour, his answer was that he did not realize she was a reporter for the national media.
Here's the leader of our country supposedly setting an example. How is that going to help the behaviour or what's expected of our soldiers serving in the forces?
11:25 a.m.
Professor, Canadian Forces College, As an Individual
I would like to return to my opening comments. General Vance has been very clear internally within the Canadian Armed Forces in terms of the expectations of those who are serving in uniform. There is a significant effort being addressed across all levels of the chain of command within the military to ensure that everyone in uniform has an understanding of what the professional standards are and the methods to deal with those who are unable to meet those standards.
11:25 a.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
When CAF members are told that they face unlimited liability as soldiers, are they told that this unlimited liability includes sexual assault, specifically rape?
11:25 a.m.
Professor, Canadian Forces College, As an Individual
I would suggest that they are very specifically told the opposite.
11:25 a.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Okay.
Professor Scoppio, could you provide an answer to the first question I asked?
11:25 a.m.
Professor, Dean of Continuing Studies, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
Sorry, can you go back to it?
11:25 a.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Yes.
How conducive to setting a good example is it when the leader of our country responds to a question about his behaviour when he groped a member of the media by saying that he didn't realize she was working for a national media source?
11:25 a.m.
Professor, Dean of Continuing Studies, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
I have to be honest; I'm not comfortable speaking specifically to that instance.
However, I think that what hit the media the hardest was the Deschamps report. That was an inquiry by an external retired judge, who was looking inward into the military specifically at that kind of sexually inappropriate behaviour.
I think that had a big impact. As a mother, if your daughter wants to join the military and this report has just hit the media, I would argue that this would have a bigger impact potentially than something that may have occurred from a politician who is external to the organization. That report may still be fresh in a lot of parents' minds when their kids are making a career choice.
The Operation Honour response to the report was a good response from the chief of defence staff, and the implementation is across the force.
Have we found in our research that there are no more disrespectful types of behaviour? I would argue no. I can't say that. I think there are still instances, and I think it takes a long time to change a culture.
11:30 a.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Women who are sexually assaulted are not always believed, or they're told they remember experiencing the incident differently than the perpetrator.
Is that attitude any way to promote a safe and diverse environment for women?
11:30 a.m.
Professor, Dean of Continuing Studies, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
Probably not.
11:30 a.m.
Professor, Canadian Forces College, As an Individual
If I could, I think, as my colleague has said, the report by Justice Deschamps provided the Canadian Armed Forces with some strong information in terms of areas that needed to be attended to.
Your comments speak to one of those areas that was clearly highlighted in the report. I believe that there have been updates to the committee with regard to the steps that have been taken in order to address these issues.
11:30 a.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Committee members also hear from members of the armed forces, which is why I'm bringing these questions forward.
11:30 a.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Female soldiers know that coming forward with claims of sexual assault or rape is a career-ending move, which will see them ostracized, transferred or even discharged. How are we supposed to promote diversity in the Canadian Armed Forces if the environment is so set against any woman trying to report a crime?
11:30 a.m.
Professor, Dean of Continuing Studies, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
If I may, I think one of the things that needs....
Although it's not just a question of bean-counting, that is an important step. As long as we don't have a critical mass of women or visible minorities or indigenous members, it's very hard to change a culture. If I am the only female dean at RMC, it's very hard for me to sit at that table. If you were the only female member on this committee, it would be very hard for you as well.
I think that the numbers are important in order to achieve that critical mass. Once that critical mass is achieved, I think it will be a lot easier to change the culture of the organization.
11:30 a.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
In a previous Parliament, this committee was told that not a single woman leaves RMC without having been sexually assaulted.
Has a survey been conducted among people in the college and graduates, or people who left because they didn't graduate, perhaps because of these types of incidents? Has a survey been done specifically for people who have attended RMC?
11:30 a.m.
Professor, Dean of Continuing Studies, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
The RMC conducts an exit survey of their graduates. I am not sure how they report on it. I've only seen partial results specific to the academic wing, but I know it's something that they've been doing for a few years. I have not personally seen the full results of these exit surveys.
11:30 a.m.
Professor, Dean of Continuing Studies, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
You're welcome.
October 18th, 2018 / 11:30 a.m.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you, and thank you both so much for being here today.
I'm going to leave it open to whoever wants to answer at this point. We see that the statistics are improving very slowly, but when you look at them in full, you see how much work there is to do around this issue in the military. Could you tell us a little bit about what barriers must be eliminated to ensure there is an increased representation from these diverse groups within the CAF?
11:35 a.m.
Professor, Dean of Continuing Studies, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
Our study focused on the ROTP, which is the recruiting program for the military colleges. That recruits about 25% of the officers. We could not determine through our study, which was statistically representative, that there's a gender bias in the recruiting system.
Are there problems in the recruiting system? For sure: There are delays, sometimes even lost files, and slow and unfriendly use of the website, but we couldn't determine that there was a systemic gender bias preventing women from having the same access to recruiting.
11:35 a.m.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
How about other populations, like the indigenous population, visible minorities and the LGBTQ2?
11:35 a.m.
Professor, Canadian Forces College, As an Individual
I would suggest that there are specific issues for different communities and different groups. I don't think there are simple, easy solutions that are going to address all of the groups that are currently under-represented.
I think at a broader level that one of the issues is the expectation that young people have of how they would be treated and what they would be able to contribute, which goes to what the Canadian Armed Forces does in delivering security for Canadians. I think that image is evolving. I referred to things like the women, peace and security agenda, the Prime Minister's policies, and the internal directions that the chief of defence staff has given on these perspectives. I would offer that this suggests to individuals a different way in which the CAF is contributing to security, and I would suggest that there are going to be more Canadians who can see themselves contributing to that. It expands the number of Canadians who will consider the military as a career.
