Evidence of meeting #62 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ukraine.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Leona Alleslev Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
How would you characterize the three leading challenges, and what would you say are the three things that Canada might be and should be doing to help them even more on that path?
Canadian representative, Ukrainian Defence Reform Advisory Board, Department of National Defence
With regard to the three challenges and perhaps the three action areas, I think that there may be some confluence between them in a way. You heard a little bit from the previous speakers. One of the challenges is legacy systems, and that, for me, captures a whole bunch of stuff. The systems can be culture and thinking, or the communications system. There is so much legacy. There is a legacy of Soviet, there is legacy of corrupt Ukrainian governments. We have to overcome those legacy systems, and the culture is a big part of that.
I think we need to move to focus.... One of the big challenges is governance, governance across Ukraine. Again, a lot is being done, and it's being done by the IMF, NATO, and the EU. Everybody is trying to pull in the same direction, but the governance systems, for reasons of capacity, knowledge, and just capability, aren't there yet, and so they don't have—
Liberal
Leona Alleslev Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
You mean governance outside of defence, even. Just governance, like—
Canadian representative, Ukrainian Defence Reform Advisory Board, Department of National Defence
I mean governance writ large because the minute you start to talk about defence, what you find, or what I found in my work, is that all roads lead to the strategic level.
Canadian representative, Ukrainian Defence Reform Advisory Board, Department of National Defence
That governance needs to start at the top. It needs to be the legal framework. It needs to be an empowered parliament. It's all of that stuff, but it also is the habits and practices of government that just don't exist—see my first point, legacy systems. This isn't because of a lack of will. It's just reality, so it's going to take time to get through this.
My last piece would be capacity building, and I hope that doesn't sound self-serving just because Canada has an extraordinary training mission in Yavoriv. It's about capacity building, and it's about focusing it at the right levels. It's top down, but as I heard from many around the table, it's bottom up, too, because there's a massive wealth of experience in the dynamism of civil society in Ukraine that needs to be tapped into.
Liberal
Leona Alleslev Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
What would you recommend that we do to help, more than what we're doing?
Canadian representative, Ukrainian Defence Reform Advisory Board, Department of National Defence
I think we need to stay the course. This requires, to quote others, strategic patience. We cannot get impatient. We have to remember that this effort is only going into its fourth year, so this takes time. We need to stay the course and keep the investment. We also need to give ourselves the flexibility to not just go for change, but to go for reform. I actually think we've done this through our training mission and our other investments—I'm talking from Global Affairs, Public Safety, and all the players that are involved in the Canadian effort. This means we have to train trainers, we have to mentor, and we have to stay alongside our partners and let them take the ownership to go the next bound. This is extremely important.
Liberal
Leona Alleslev Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Are we in the governance sphere? Are we helping?
Canadian representative, Ukrainian Defence Reform Advisory Board, Department of National Defence
Yes, we are.
Liberal
Leona Alleslev Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Do we need to provide more resources, maybe judicial?
Canadian representative, Ukrainian Defence Reform Advisory Board, Department of National Defence
We actually do have a good program training judges. There definitely needs to be more on the judicial side.
Liberal
Canadian representative, Ukrainian Defence Reform Advisory Board, Department of National Defence
Thank you.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Sinclair, it's always great to see you.
I notice that on the committee there are a bunch of retired generals and you as a former ambassador, diplomat, and policy lead over at National Defence. How is that working for you, dealing with a bunch of generals? You're trying to develop civilian oversight—
Canadian representative, Ukrainian Defence Reform Advisory Board, Department of National Defence
Yes.
Conservative
Canadian representative, Ukrainian Defence Reform Advisory Board, Department of National Defence
I think it's working extremely well. Maybe it's my good training over at National Defence in working with the Canadian Armed Forces.
Interestingly, with regard to the countries that I'm dealing with, these are very experienced military officers. They defer to me as the civilian; I defer to them for their military expertise. They understand intrinsically what it means to have, not so much civilian control, but what I prefer to call democratic accountability of the armed forces. We have a very good relationship. It works well, and I think we present well to the Ukrainians in terms of a model of how it should be.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
I'm glad to hear that.
You have mentioned that 2018 is the time for the change in minister of defence. How is General Poltorak preparing for that? He was in great spirits when we met with him when we were in Kiev. Is he going to retire as a general and continue on as minister, or is he just going to stay in the military until it's time to cash it all in?
Canadian representative, Ukrainian Defence Reform Advisory Board, Department of National Defence
That's a very good question.
I think this gets back a little bit to the legacy and just trying to get people's heads around what it means to be a civilian minister of defence. A number of wonderful countries have examples of military people becoming ministers of defence, so we know it can be done and can be done successfully.
One of the keys, I think, is that you have the governance around you. You have the institutions, the habits, the practices, and the transparency. The accountability is clear. You know what your responsibility is in your role.
A lot of that is still lacking in the Ukrainian system, particularly with the ministry of defence, where the civilian side is very underdeveloped and the general staff side is very highly developed.
Again, it's legacy. We have to help them understand that it isn't just about taking off a uniform and putting on a skirt or a suit.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
One group we met with was the defence committee from the Verkhovna Rada, the Ukrainian parliament. Are you also providing advice to legislators about the role they can play as part of that civilian oversight to the minister, as we have here in Canada?
Canadian representative, Ukrainian Defence Reform Advisory Board, Department of National Defence
Thank you for that question.
Indeed, I failed to touch on one area I wanted to raise, which is that I do work closely with the Verkhovna Rada and with Oksana Syroyid, whom you met, and her committee members. One of the commitments under the “Strategic Defence Bulletin” and pillar one, which is the pillar I am actually working on most closely, is improving the relationship with the Rada. At the moment, it doesn't work as well as it should.
Certainly, I think the Verkhovna Rada needs some help from our parliamentarians in the sense of mentoring, to understand what it means to run a committee like this, to prepare a witness, to prepare the documentation, and to have the staff. It gets back to the capacity again. I think that strengthening the Rada's ability to do the oversight function is essential to challenging the ministry and the organization to step up to the plate, to do the right thing, and to have the right engagement.
There is capacity building there that needs to be done.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Thank you.
I want to turn over the rest of my time to Mr. Yurdiga.
Conservative
David Yurdiga Conservative Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB
Thank you.
We have heard a lot about the corruption within the Ukraine armed forces. I am curious. Has the Ukrainian Defence Reform Advisory Board developed a strategy to address the current and future corruption?
