Evidence of meeting #62 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ukraine.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ihor Kozak  As an Individual
Christian Leuprecht  Professor, Department of Political Science, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
Matt Schroeder  Senior Researcher, Small Arms Survey, As an Individual
Jill Sinclair  Canadian representative, Ukrainian Defence Reform Advisory Board, Department of National Defence

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

I'd like to welcome our guests who are continuing a discussion on the crisis in Ukraine. This conversation is obviously very important to this committee and to Canadians, so we're grateful for your presence and the opportunity to continue this discussion.

Today we have Ihor Kozak; Christian Leuprecht, professor in the department of political science at the Royal Military College of Canada; and Matt Schroeder, senior researcher for the Small Arms Survey, via video conference from Washington, D.C. I've been advised that Mr. Kozak will present first.

I'd like to remind you to do your very best to stay within your 10 minutes. The committee is very interested in asking questions, and staying on the timeline makes my job as chair a little easier.

Mr. Kozak, you have the floor.

3:30 p.m.

Ihor Kozak As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the Standing Committing on National Defence, for convening these important hearings and conducting the study on Canada and the crisis in Ukraine, and for the invitation to appear alongside such an impressive group of renowned experts with whom you have been consulting over the past few weeks.

I can clearly recall that five years ago I appeared before similar hearings convened by the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development. At those hearings, I emphasized that the authoritarian criminal regime of then-president of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych and Russia were the two major threats to the Euro-Atlantic future of Ukraine, as well as to the security and stability of the west.

While the Yanukovych regime is gone, Russia remains. It remains as more of a threat now than before when it sought to meddle in Ukraine's international affairs. Russia's invasion and its war, which is, to be clear, the armed aggression and military occupation of the sovereign Ukrainian land of Crimea and parts of the Donbass region, has created an unprecedented international crisis. The only other similar situation in modern history occurred when troops from Nazi Germany marched into Sudetenland. As we all know, the west's faint-hearted response at that time to the blatant military aggression in the heart of Europe spawned World War II.

Russia's war in the geopolitical centre of Europe is now in its fourth year with no real sign of ending any time soon. The general staff of the Ukrainian armed forces reports that in the last 48 hours, four Ukrainian soldiers were killed and six were wounded in action. During that time, the ceasefire violations by Russian terrorist forces significantly escalated as they fired on Ukrainian positions 80 times in total, including with heavy weapons. Russian terrorist forces also shelled residential areas near the village of Zalizne. One civilian was injured.

The consequences are a human tragedy that include over two million displaced persons, over 10,000 dead, many tens of thousands maimed, and massive destruction of the Donbass infrastructure and thus a large segment of the Ukrainian industrial base. If this is not enough, Russia is also deeply engaged in hybrid warfare aimed at destabilizing Ukraine from within. The extent of the Kremlin's efforts to undermine the Ukrainian government, to aggravate political disagreements in Parliament, to foment social unrest, to create conflicts among ethnic and religious groups, to spread disinformation, and to intimidate people through acts of terror is unprecedented in comparison to similar efforts over the course of Ukraine's 26 years of independence.

I am a retired officer from the Canadian Armed Forces. My current occupation is a consultant in the military-industrial sphere. I am engaged with many not-for-profit and charitable projects involving the war zone of eastern Ukraine. I have been to the Donbass many times, including to the furthest positions along the line of demarcation. I could elaborate on this topic for a long time and in much detail. Unfortunately, the time allotted to me is very limited. I believe it suffices to share one glaring example.

There are now almost 500 Russian tanks in the Donbass, a contingent larger than the entire armoured corps of the current German army, not to mention offensive battle groups located on Russian soil next to Ukraine's borders. The Ukrainian army is at a serious disadvantage, and would be hard pressed to stop a full Russian offensive, especially if modern weapons and technologies were used. This is the reason Ukraine has consistently been requesting the west to provide modern defensive weapons.

Ladies and gentlemen, I am pleased that our government is finally moving forward with the process that would see Ukraine added to the automatic firearms country control list. This tangible action by Canada speaks louder than all the so-called assurances from many other Euro-Atlantic partners of Ukraine.

The Ukrainian government provided Canada and our allies with the list of necessary military equipment, and requested that Canada recommence provision of military-grade satellite imagery. Canada should respond positively to the Ukrainian government's requests, and should also encourage our allies to provide further non-lethal as well as lethal defensive weapons. The military aid should include those called for in Anders Rasmussen's excellent op-ed two days ago in The Globe and Mail, such as advanced night-vision goggles, signal-jamming equipment, and counter-battery radars, but also such defensive items as FGM-148 Javelin anti-tank missiles.

I also fully concur with Mr. Rasmussen's recommendation to confront Vladimir Putin on his United Nations peacekeeping proposal.

Canada, as you will recall, gave birth to the very concept of peacekeeping, and since the 1950s has participated in more peacekeeping missions than any other country in the world. As such, our country is uniquely positioned to lead a peacekeeping mission in the Donbass. For this to work, however, the UN needs to be brought into the process of establishing terms and conditions that are fair, equitable, and geared to the principal goal of restoring Ukraine's territorial integrity and sovereignty, including Ukrainian control over the Russian boarder. The Kremlin should be offered an off-ramp back into Russia for its military and its surrogates. That is all. There should be no meddling with restoring complete Ukrainian sovereignty for the sake of some sort of face-saving concessions to Mr. Putin.

Ukrainians have risen to the challenge on both counts of the Kremlin aggression: a military war in eastern Ukraine and a hybrid war in the rest of the country. Moreover, Ukrainians also have gone forward in reforming their government, economy, and society. There is much more that needs to be done still. However, more has been achieved in the last three years than during the first 23 years of Ukraine's independence: transparent government procurement, mandatory electronic declarations for government officials, and a western model of police force—with our Canadian help, of course—just to name a few. Similarly, education, pension, and health care reforms are being tackled simultaneously at a time of war, in dire economic conditions, and with Russia's hybrid methods seeking to manipulate and to represent these efforts to the polity in the most negative ways.

From the very outset of Ukraine's independence in 1991, Canada responded with understanding and assistance to the Ukrainian people. Canada was the first western country to recognize Ukrainian independence. It was also the first to confront the authoritarian practices of the Yanukovych regime and its policies of distancing Ukraine from Europe. Hence, the very first trip by former Prime Minister Stephen Harper to Ukraine seven years ago this month took place during the very first year of Yanukovych's tenure.

Today, it is Canada once again and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau that not only acknowledge Ukraine's right to defend itself, but also work on finalizing the process of adding Ukraine to the AFCC list. This is in addition to supplying Ukrainian forces with the much-needed non-lethal military equipment, starting in the summer of 2015 when it was needed most. I am certain that Mr. Bezan, present here, will never forget that flight on the CC-130J Hercules aircraft from CFB Trenton to Ukraine to deliver the first batch of that much-needed equipment right to the front lines. It is also in addition to Operation Unifier—which is a great success, and which, by the way, currently is being proudly led by my Royal Military College of Canada classmate and close friend, Lieutenant-Colonel Kris Reeves—as well as to Canada's steadfast support of Ukraine on political and economic fronts.

In conclusion, ladies and gentlemen, the truth is that Ukraine remains the only real force standing between the Russian aggressors and the security and stability of Europe. Western leaders need to find wisdom and strength to adopt a far-sighted strategy for the free world. This, among other things, means doing more, not less, to support Ukraine at this critical time. The Canadian people and government have always been there to help the people of Ukraine. Today is no different. I am confident that we are ready to answer the call.

Thank you. I will be happy to answer any questions you may have.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Thank you, Mr. Kozak.

Mr. Leuprecht, you have the floor.

3:40 p.m.

Dr. Christian Leuprecht Professor, Department of Political Science, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual

Hello, ladies and gentlemen.

I will speak in English, but do not hesitate to ask questions in your preferred official language.

In 2015, I spent a week in Kiev teaching an executive-level seminar on civil security sector relations at the Ukraine defence university on behalf of the director of military training and co-operation within the assistant deputy minister of policy's office in DND at the behest of the Prime Minister's Office and the global engagement strategy. I've also twice been to Latvia in recent months at the invitation of the Latvian Institute of International Affairs.

I point this out because, of course, we need to consider that the region, and Russian actions in the region, are consuming considerable Canadian military resources if we look at the size of our mission to Ukraine, if we look at our deployment to Latvia, both the battle group and the headquarters deployment, plus our various forms of engagement throughout eastern and central Europe on a more ad hoc basis. I think there's an important question here for parliamentarians as to what sort of resources to allocate, and how to allocate scarce resources effectively and efficiently in the pursuit of Canadian interests. What we need to keep in mind here is a debate.

When Bill Clinton started to propagate NATO enlargement toward the east, George Kennan, the famed U.S. ambassador and strategist with regard to Russia, said that Bill Clinton was basically undoing his life's work. On one side are the people who want to respect what Russia considers its sphere of influence, and on the other side are folks, such as Clinton, who say that countries should be able to make sovereign decisions and should be able to enact the democratic will of their people. Canada, I think, is trying to navigate those two elements as best as it can.

If we think of the enhanced forward presence in Latvia, if we think of our deployment to Ukraine, eastern Europe, there's part of an important component of Canadian grand strategy here. We're not here to make the world a better place. This isn't altruistic. Europe is our second-most important strategic partner after the United States. Anything that compromises European borders, European stability, the cohesion and integrity of the European Union, of the Schengen entity, profoundly runs counter to Canadian interests. To some extent we can think of, for instance, what we're doing in Latvia, as a peacekeeping mission in a sort of conventional British bobby Sir Robert Peel policing sense. Ultimately, this is not a force that's going to stop the Russians, but it can provide a visibility and as a result, hopefully, a deterrent. I think that's also an important component that we forget. We always focus on the instrumental piece of what we're doing in Ukraine, but I think simply showing the flag has a certain deterrent effect.

We need to consider the context, though, of what's happening in Ukraine. This is a frozen conflict. Not much has really happened strategically in the last three years. Ukraine, I would contend, remains the most important strategic theatre for Russia today in the world. We're only going to see progress if either Russia or Ukraine concedes interests, and I don't see that happening. We're therefore likely going to have this frozen conflict stalemate for some time to come, and Canada needs to consider what it's going to do here.

What is this ultimately about? Ukraine is sort of considered a classic invasion route by the Russians, when they think of Napoleon, Charles XII of Sweden, of Hitler. Then also, of course, Europe has the same perspective, that this has been a way for Russia to compromise European interests over history. It's a classic invasion route because the geography is flat, and it's a very large country so it serves as a buffer.

Russia considers it important because it can thereby influence and control what's happening in Transnistria, the breakaway region within Moldova. It is concerned about the northern Black Sea coast and the ability to control that. I think that's what much of Crimea was about: ultimately Russia wants to control all of the Black Sea, and from Crimea you can get everywhere easily and readily. Within the Black Sea, you can control the Kerch Strait, which leads to the Sea of Azov. The Sea of Azov is key for Russia in terms of energy supplies and in terms of water routes. From there you reach the Don River, and if you can make your way up the Don River, Russia is deeply concerned about the potential detachment of the Caucasus region from the rest of Russia. From its perspective, it thinks back to the Crimean War where that was a real risk, of course.

Putin's hope and the gamble that the Putin regime has been dabbling in is that it will be able to parlay the gains in Syria into bargaining concessions from the west with regard to Ukraine. It hasn't been able to do that, and much of Russian meddling and involvement in conflicts—everything from providing intelligence and document support to the Taliban, to its statements in support of North Korea, to even now having a substantial diplomatic mission and effort in Libya—is all a way of trying to leverage these conflicts as a negotiation tool and parlay them into bargaining chips over Ukraine.

That Russian strategy so far has not borne out, because the west has blocked Russian initiatives, in particular around Syria. To the contrary, we've seen an increase in sanctions from the United States and we'll likely see a similar response from the European Union by year's end or early 2018 against Russian state companies.

Of course, we have the context of the Russian presidential elections, and I might remind you that we're going to have one more term of Putin, but what comes after that? Will he then manipulate the constitution or will he have another swap? Putin isn't going to be in charge forever, so we also need to hedge about possibilities of change and regime change in that regard.

Currently, we see the U.S. resorting to some delivery of lethal weapons and engaging in military exercises in Moldova and the south Caucasus regions. Both the west and Russia have key strategic imperatives. Russia is trying to leverage its conflict involvements, while the west is trying to block Russian initiatives as a way to disincentivize Russia from getting involved in all these other conflicts around the world and creating strategic challenges for the west there.

There are five things the committee needs to think about, going forward.

Does Canada want to buy into military manoeuvres outside of the traditional NATO realm when it comes to supporting some of the allies in the region, in particular Moldova and south Caucasus, or do we want to leave that up to the Americans?

Does Canada want to get involved in providing lethal weapons or things that can be subsequently parlayed into lethal force, such as satellite intelligence, and under what conditions?

Does Canada want to join the U.S. in ratcheting up the sanctions regime? We've already seen some of that response from Canada.

How can Canada best coordinate with the European Union and the United States in an effort to thwart these broader involvements by Russia, both in Ukraine and in other conflicts?

Finally, how can Canada actively discourage Russia from trying to meddle in many other places in the world? At the same time, we need to make sure we continue to work and co-operate with the Russians, because of course we have a number of strategic common interests, such as weapons of mass destruction.

In the context of Canadian grand strategy—where we want to make sure we keep all the NATO players onside and involved, as well as keeping the Americans in NATO and contributing to it—there are four key elements that Canada needs to think about. The first is how can Canada best support the Minsk II process? It's easy to talk about militarizing the conflict when you're in Ottawa and Washington, but if you're sitting in Berlin or Paris and you're only a few hundred kilometres away, that picture looks very different.

Canada needs to continue to incentivize the agreement and the process, however flawed they might be, to make sure Ukraine as a partner—in return for support—adheres to the commitments it has made, in particular with regard to decentralization, recognition, and some of the rights of the Russian-language minority. Ukraine is effectively a bilingual country, much more than Canada is. We're not going to be able to settle the issues if we can't get the political elites to recognize that and make some concessions around it. We need to work to continue to professionalize the armed forces of Ukraine. We've made some inroads in that regard, but there is a lot more heavy lifting to do.

We need to make sure we can continue to disincentivize corruption within the country. A lot of the effort that Canada has invested in transformation and transparency, with Europe as a key partner, is really important, because the regime that was set up is a spinoff of the Putinist authoritarian regime that is essentially structured around a rent-seeking elite. The way you keep the regime in place and stable is that everybody has an interest in the status quo, because they're all part of that rent-seeking elite and they're all heavily intertwined. Undoing that in Ukraine is going to take some time. It's going to be critical not just to transform Ukraine and provide a basis for the legitimacy of a democratic regime, but also to encourage economic development.

I want to end on that point. Ukraine faces significant challenges. It has gone from 50 million to 40 million people in the last 20 years, with a rapidly aging population. This has significant political implications for how people vote, for instance. What can we do to make sure that Canada can invest in a stable, long-term economic, social, and political development of Ukraine going forward?

I think some of the initiatives that the European Union has started in that regard are a good model for Canada to support and to join. As in many of these types of missions on the military side, our partners might be in the anglosphere, the U.K. and the United States. At the same time, Canada has been very good and strategic over the years in co-operating with the European Union on political, social, and economic reform. Striking a balance between those two will be key going forward.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Thank you very much for your comments, Mr. Leuprecht.

Mr. Schroeder, thank you for your patience. You have the floor.

3:50 p.m.

Matt Schroeder Senior Researcher, Small Arms Survey, As an Individual

Thank you very much.

I want to begin by thanking the Standing Committee on National Defence for the opportunity to participate in today's discussion, which we view as very important.

As mentioned, I am a senior researcher with Small Arms Survey, a Geneva-based institute that conducts impartial, evidence-based research on all aspects of small arms and light weapons, including illicit proliferation in Ukraine, which is the focus of a study that we recently launched and hope to complete by early next year.

My statement today draws on some of the data we've collected so far, along with the findings from previous research conducted by colleagues and others.

The crisis in Ukraine is an exceedingly important topic, particularly for those of us who track the spread of small arms and light weapons. Since the outbreak of hostilities in 2014, Ukraine has become a hotbed of illicit weapons proliferation. Ukrainian authorities routinely seize arms caches containing dozens of small arms, light weapons, rounds of light weapons ammunition, and hundreds of rounds of small arms ammunition. These weapons range from antique firearms to third-generation portable missiles.

Among the most notable of these weapons are man-portable air defence systems, or MANPADS, dozens of which have been seized by Ukrainian authorities and spotted in the hands of pro-Russian militants in recent years. The vast majority of these missiles are second- and third-generation systems, which is unusual. In most countries, the majority of illicit MANPADS are aging first-generation missiles that are significantly less capable than their more modern counterparts.

In Ukraine, this ratio is turned on its head. The vast majority of illicit MANPADS appear to be second- and third-generation systems, with first-generation missiles comprising just a small percentage of illicit stocks. Given the vulnerability of commercial airliners to a MANPADS attack, and the ease with which missiles can be smuggled across borders and to attack sites, the loose missiles in Ukraine are worrisome, to say the least.

However, MANPADS are not the only illicit weapons of concern in Ukraine. Authorities have seized large quantities of, among other weapons, anti-personnel landmines, anti-tank guided missiles, shoulder-fired rockets, and hand grenades, the latter of which are now ubiquitous in Ukraine. In 2016, authorities seized 2,698 grenades, a 23-fold increase over 2013. These seizures are occurring throughout Ukraine, not just in the east.

These weapons play an important role in the conflict, but the threat that they pose is not limited to conflict zones. Hand grenades, for example, have been used in attacks on, among other targets, private homes, diplomatic compounds, government buildings, peaceful protests, parades, and even restaurants, in different parts of the country. Accidental explosions of illicit grenades and other light weapons have claimed additional lives, including those of children.

On July 4, 2016, three children in the Donetsk region were killed by a grenade they found the day before and brought home with them. This danger is not limited to eastern Ukraine. In May of this year, children playing in a playground in Kiev found a fused F1 hand grenade in a sandbox.

Illicit weapons in Ukraine are also a concern for authorities in other countries, including, but not limited to, neighbouring states. In 2016, a former UK customs official warned that loose weapons in Ukraine “will undoubtedly be trafficked into Europe”. These fears are underscored by recent reports of thwarted attempts to traffic firearms, ammunition, and other weapons to European countries, including an alleged scheme to smuggle RPG launchers, explosives, firearms, and other weapons into France. Security officials have also interdicted transcontinental arms shipments.

In January 2017, officials at Kiev International Airport discovered 17 boxes of undeclared goods in an aircraft bound for the Middle East. Three of the boxes contained launchers for portable anti-tank missile systems.

While our understanding of cross-border arms smuggling is incomplete, existing evidence suggests that such trafficking is currently relatively limited. That could change quickly, if and when the conflict in the east is resolved and demand for military small arms and light weapons decreases. We will continue to monitor illicit arms flows within, into, and from Ukraine, and we will flag any notable developments, including significant increases in cross-border arms trafficking or changes in the composition of illicit weapons in Ukraine.

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Thank you very much for your testimony.

This particular panel will go until 4:45, at which point I'll suspend, and we will have another quick 45-minute panel afterwards.

Having said that, the first seven minutes for questions go to Mr. Gerretsen.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for being here today to provide some insight into the topic we're currently studying.

Professor Leuprecht, thank you for coming from Kingston to be here with us today.

I want to ask you about what Canada's involvement can be in helping to eliminate the corruption that still exists within Ukraine. What I witnessed and I took away from our visit last month was something quite unique in that the revolution and the anti-corrupt movement really seems to be coming from the bottom up, in that it is a grassroots movement. What appeared to still have the most corruption embedded within it was at the top level: the government, the politicians, the department heads.

I asked a very interesting question when we were there, at least I thought it was interesting, about the number of individuals who had been charged. The response was, “We have investigated 800 people”, but they didn't tell me how many had been charged or actually convicted, I should say, because it's actually very few.

What can Canada's role be in helping with that? With everything else that's going on with the current conflict, at some point there must come a collision between this grassroots movement and the corruption that still exists. Where do you see that going, and where do you see Canada's role could be in helping with that?

4 p.m.

Professor, Department of Political Science, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual

Dr. Christian Leuprecht

The corruption issue is of course a symptom of this Putinist rent-seeking system that underlies it and that kept everybody in line. While we've had a change of the senior political elite, much of the rest of that state establishment is still very much in place. Changing that culture will be difficult, but the challenge is that the gains on democratization will be lost if the legitimacy of the regime and the bureaucracy and its impartiality are lost. It is a poignant question because it is ultimately what some of the deepest concerns are to the average Ukrainian.

There's a carrot and stick approach here. The support that Canada provides has to tie more explicitly into ensuring that Ukraine does the right thing. Whether prosecuting people necessarily is the right thing, I'm not sure, but certainly, I think, one of the quickest ways to move through the system is a renewal of the entire state structure. It's moving some of the senior levels out, retiring them out, because there are many very competent younger Ukrainians, including my colleague, who are willing to step into that fray, and the old senior folks are very much trying to protect their turf. We know what some of this looks like because we saw some of this, for instance—not entirely comparable—in Northern Ireland after the Good Friday Agreement, and what a complete renewal of much of the civil service looks like and how it can be done.

At the same time, it's the continued training, and Canada has a lot of expertise in this. We're, for instance, helping Mexico as it moves to a more adversarial system. Canada has a lot of training in the professionalization of the judiciary, of the independence of investigations. We'll never be able to do this by ourselves. These are not areas where Canada is ever going to go in and do something on its own, but there is real opportunity to do more with the European Union and to be a more aggressive part of the strategy that the European Union has devised in that regard. I would say the European Union has a very robust strategy. I would also submit that this strategy is readily saleable to Canadians, while the military mission will always be inherently controversial. Anti-corruption efforts and the broader strategy of engaging with the Ukrainian civil service is something that most Canadians would say is exactly what we should be doing, exactly where we have comparative advantage as a country that doesn't have an immediate ulterior motive.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

I just need to jump in here because I will run out of time, and the chair is very quick at shutting me down.

You touched on something very interesting, which was changing some of that structure at the top. We went to a military base there and the current Ukrainian base commander had been in that position for 13 years. We're both very familiar with CFB Kingston. No commander lasts more than two years.

We saw a lot of the training that our military was doing there, but that doesn't strike me as something our military will be able to train. That is embedded within the structure.

Is Canada doing enough outside our military role, in our diplomatic role, to help those changes to occur?

October 18th, 2017 / 4 p.m.

Professor, Department of Political Science, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual

Dr. Christian Leuprecht

I think for one thing it's important that this be led by Global Affairs. GAC has very few resources on the ground but ultimately, in terms of civil military relations, we want to make sure there is a coherent strategy. One of my concerns going to Latvia is that there isn't a strategy. We have an ambassador. We have a military commandant. We need to get people working together much more effectively on this. We're essentially changing the Ukrainian armed forces from a Russian force structure and officer structure to a western NATO-type structure. We're trying to do this in a very short period of time. We have lots of experience from eastern and central Europe but you observe a function that shows there is not as much buy-in as we would like, and I think we can provide more incentives for the Ukrainian armed forces' security and bureaucracy to buy into that by tying some of our support to those changes.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Thank you.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Thank you.

Mr. Hoback.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here this afternoon.

I have two streams of questions because I'm curious on a couple of levels.

Mr. Schroeder, you talked about light arms. You said they were for pro-Russian forces. Is that correct?

4:05 p.m.

Senior Researcher, Small Arms Survey, As an Individual

Matt Schroeder

The Russian militants have access to a lot of different small arms and weapons.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

These small arms are coming out of Russia. Is that fair to say?

4:05 p.m.

Senior Researcher, Small Arms Survey, As an Individual

Matt Schroeder

That is a good question. There is anecdotal evidence linking them to Russia. But a lot more study needs to be done in part because a lot of the weapons listed that we've seen are early-generation, Soviet-designed systems that were widely exported in the region and were stockpiled by Ukraine. There are exceptions and I can talk about those exceptions, but a more systematic analysis is needed.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Okay, so like the rocket launchers, that type of stuff is more sophisticated, and they obviously would have to come from Russia, would they not?

4:05 p.m.

Senior Researcher, Small Arms Survey, As an Individual

Matt Schroeder

No, not necessarily. Some of the rocket launchers, yes, but not all of them. The man-portable air defence systems are pretty widely proliferated.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Mr. Kozak, I want to talk a little about hybrid warfare. I know it almost looks like two battlefields. You have the actual battlefield itself. I'll call it that for lack of a better word. Then you also have cyber-attacks, the whole undermining of the Ukrainian government and economy. I'll use the example of power outages where there was a cyber-threat and malware went into the Ukrainian power grid, the power went off and everybody blamed the Ukrainian government for being unable to manage the power system. Yet we find in North America some of that malware is showing up in our power grids. I'm concerned that when we talk about cybersecurity are we doing enough? Does more need to be done? There are also some theories out there that Ukraine is a test place for Russian cyber-attacks. Would you have any comments on that?

4:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Ihor Kozak

I believe you are correct in that there is a threat when we are talking about Russian aggression and specifically hybrid warfare. You're not talking about a threat to Ukraine itself but also to European and global stability and security here in the west. The key example is that, allegedly, the Russians got involved in the U.S. presidential elections. If they can do that, they can probably tell you they can get involved in other aspects as well. Talking to my American colleagues and folks on the ground in Ukraine—and I'm there often—it's amazing to see the extent of hybrid warfare. They are providing agents of influence, spending a lot of money to destabilize the situation among various communities there. They are engaging in cyberwarfare as you said, and so, absolutely, I don't believe you're doing enough here. I don't believe we are protected here. Russian propaganda is very prevalent in Canada. RT, Russia Today television, is spreading a lot of propaganda. At the same time, I'm certain that a Russian agent would influence and secure the services of working in Canada as well, and I'm pretty sure they are working in the cybersecurity area too, so we absolutely need to do more, not less.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

We're not part of that special committee that's working on cybersecurity in Ukraine. Do you think we should be part of that group?

4:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Ihor Kozak

Absolutely. I think obviously for the sake of supporting our Ukrainian partners but, at the same time, more importantly for our own good. For example, the training mission that we have in Ukraine right now, yes, Canada is doing a lot to train Ukrainian troops and it saves lives and does all that good stuff. But at the same time we as Canadians are benefiting as much, learning about new Russian tactics, new Russian weaponry from those troops who are on the front line, engaged with the Russians day in and day out. We as Canadians are learning a lot and we are benefiting a lot. I would rather see us learning from Ukrainian troops in western Ukraine as opposed to learning, God forbid, two or three years from now having Latvia on the battlefield with Russia.

I think the same analogy can be applied here to cybersecurity. I think we should get engaged, we should help Ukrainians with the technologies and the capabilities and experience we have. But we should also jump on this bandwagon and learn as much as we can as quickly as we can so we can do some preventive actions here in Canada, also with our NATO allies.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

It's interesting. I went to numerous governors' conferences this past summer down in the U.S. At every one of them they talked about cybersecurity.

4:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Ihor Kozak

Absolutely.