Evidence of meeting #62 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ukraine.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Canadian representative, Ukrainian Defence Reform Advisory Board, Department of National Defence
No, it isn't and I don't know why. Is it because they're in the middle of a war? Is it because there's other stuff going on?
As I say, Hungary had that sort of approach. They said, “Either you meet these criteria and stay or you get out.”
Liberal
Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
I'm just trying to get your ideas on this. In your opinion, is it worthwhile that Canada take a more formidable approach in that they have to start doing some of this stuff?
Canadian representative, Ukrainian Defence Reform Advisory Board, Department of National Defence
I would say that they are doing some of this stuff. I've seen change in some of those senior folks. Whether it's appeasement or it's that they've recognized that resistance is futile because that's the way things are going, if people do the right thing for the wrong reasons, man, I'll take it, right?
Canadian representative, Ukrainian Defence Reform Advisory Board, Department of National Defence
That's okay. I'll question their motives later, but I'll take that, and we'll get on with it anyhow.
Liberal
Canadian representative, Ukrainian Defence Reform Advisory Board, Department of National Defence
It's about the sustainability, exactly.
I would just revert almost to point one, which I always remind myself. Unlike in many other places where we've tried reform, this is our helping Ukraine implement the reform that it has said it wants. Its president, its Rada, has said that their aspiration is Euro-Atlantic standards and principles, that it is NATO interoperability. I'm not telling some senior general who's served for goodness knows how long, “You have to change. Your government has said...and that's why your folks got out and did Euromaidan.” It's not my coming in, it's not a bunch of western do-gooders. It is intrinsically Ukrainian, and I think that's a really important point of departure, for me, anyway.
Liberal
Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
Thank you.
I promised the parliamentary secretary, Sherry Romanado, that I would give her the remaining two minutes.
October 18th, 2017 / 5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Liberal
Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC
Thank you.
We heard a lot about hybrid warfare and the difficulties we're seeing in the region regarding Russian disinformation campaigns and so on.
In looking at some of the statistics in terms of Ukraine, there are 2.4 million TV subscribers, and close to half the population, 21 million, are Internet users. What media are Russian disinformation campaigns using? We've heard a little bit about television, that they're trying to be subtle about some of the misinformation they're sending out there. In terms of capabilities for cyber and social media networks, with only 12.6% of Ukrainians using Facebook, I know that in May 2017 a presidential decree prevented access to three Russian social networks, two social media networks, and a search engine, Yandex.
What is it that Canada can be doing in terms of helping Ukraine prevent or try to combat cyberwarfare? I know Canada does not have a strong cyber capability. We're still working on it. We're building the plane at the same time as we're flying it. What is it we can be doing in terms of helping them against that disinformation campaign, using those various channels? Could you elaborate?
Canadian representative, Ukrainian Defence Reform Advisory Board, Department of National Defence
I can give you a couple of thoughts, but this does go a little bit outside of my remit.
Are we out of time?
Canadian representative, Ukrainian Defence Reform Advisory Board, Department of National Defence
Okay. It's a little bit beyond my remit. It's simply as somebody who goes back and forth and keeps her eyes open a little bit.
Russia uses every available...it doesn't matter what. It could be by post. They use everything. The Ukraine government is conscious and Ukrainians are conscious, I think, to a certain extent that this permeates their environment. It may be subtle in some places and it may be more obvious in others.
What can Canada do to help Ukraine? Here I'll revert a little bit to the defence perspective. In terms of some of the work that we are doing through NATO, Canada is co-leading with Germany and the United Kingdom an effort on command and control and computers. We're putting quite a bit of money into that. This is a place where you can deal with the cyber-threat quite explicitly. Also, in our training, we are making people conscious of that threat, just as our trainers are conscious of that threat.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm sorry to go over.
Liberal
Kate Young Liberal London West, ON
Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here and to ask you questions. Thank you very much for appearing before the committee. I'll share some of my time.
Liberal
Kate Young Liberal London West, ON
You're good. Okay.
You mentioned earlier very positive comments about how far they've come in a very short time. You did say that you thought it essential that we stay the course, and that we can't get impatient. But I think history has shown us that doesn't always work all the time, that time isn't always on our side. Is there any concern that the progress you, we, and the Ukrainian people have made in the last three years will be scuttled in the face of the conflict they're facing?
Canadian representative, Ukrainian Defence Reform Advisory Board, Department of National Defence
I am concerned about time, although not so much because of the conflict, I must say. I'm concerned about time because we are running into the Ukrainian electoral cycle, and that will have its own dynamics, as you all know. I'm concerned about time because governments tend not to have a lot of patience. We move on to the next crisis. I'm concerned also because the Ukrainian public is becoming impatient. You saw some of these demonstrations.
So yes, I am concerned. That's why it's really important for us to have...almost pilots, and proofs of concept. The big pieces are going to take so long to move, and they are so interrelated. Defence is related to justice, and so on, but we need to make small changes. That's why things in the defence field, like trying to professionalize the non-commissioned officer corps, where a lot of work has been done thanks to Canada.... Those are people who are serving in the military, who have gone from being conscripts to being what are called contract soldiers, where they have better pay and provisions, and they're better equipped. They go home to their villages, and people say, “Ah, change is possible.”
I don't want to sound like Pollyanna here, but I really believe in the demonstration effect. It's extremely important, and it will give us hopefully a bit more of the time we need to get the strategic institutional change that's required.
Liberal
Kate Young Liberal London West, ON
Do you discuss the what-ifs, the questions that need to be asked: if this happens, we'll go to this course; if this happens, we'll change courses? Do you discuss that? When you say “stay the course”, are you focused on what you hope to achieve, understanding the political ramifications right now, or are you opening it up?
Canadian representative, Ukrainian Defence Reform Advisory Board, Department of National Defence
It's an interesting question because we are an advisory board to the Ukrainian minister of defence. The extent to which there are what-ifs that he needs to look at as he looks out.... We discuss everything from the conflict to what if certain things don't go right within the reform process: how do you mitigate, how do you regroup, or what do you need to do? Yes, we discuss those what-ifs.
As a board we try to stay quite agile. Part of our role as a board, I think at least, is to help the minister and Ukraine stay a few steps ahead of where stuff is going, because we have a bit of experience and we have the ability to look out because we're not trying to run the country.
Liberal
Kate Young Liberal London West, ON
One of our previous witnesses talked about training the trainer and how important that was. Could I get your comments on that, and whether that's something we are already working on, or whether you think we need to be more robust in that area?
Canadian representative, Ukrainian Defence Reform Advisory Board, Department of National Defence
Yes, we've moved to training the trainer, and this is one of the things Canadians do so well. We move quite quickly within our task force—our 200 folks who are doing the training—to training the trainers. Actually, we have formal authority to move up what I call the value chain. It's great to train the recruits, but what you want to do is train the next level up, and then you want to get into the institutions, where you have much greater reach.
The United States training mission doesn't do this, and the British don't do it. Canada is doing this, so we are moving much more from plain training into mentoring and advisory roles.
Also, as I think one of the previous witnesses said, we need to embed in the ministries. We're embedding in the ministries. We are learning the lessons. We've gone to the Ukrainians and we know there is a lot on hybrid and cyber and other things that we can learn from them. It's this reciprocal space where, by learning from them, we can help them better understand what they're going through. We take back what we can, but we help them move to the next level, too. We are deliberately moving up the value chain in our training.
