National Defence Committee on March 3rd, 2021

[Gary Walbourne]

There wasn't much I could do. I did reach out to the complainant with some minor assurances and just wished the best to that person for the future, but there wasn't much I could do.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

How did the complainant feel then?

[Gary Walbourne]

You know, we sit and talk about this a lot, but I believe that in order to fully understand, you almost need to be a victim. Someone comes to a place of authority looking for help, guidance and assistance, and they are told, “Sorry, we don't have any for you.” It is kind of heartbreaking to have to go back to that individual and say, “I didn't get the reception I was looking for.” That is kind of hard information and detail to take back to a complainant, to a victim in this type of circumstance.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much.

Your time is up.

We'll move on to Mr. Garrison, please.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thanks very much, Madam Chair.

Again, I'm a little disturbed that some of the questioning takes the form of “Why did the complainant knock on the wrong door?” instead of “Why was there no one who took the action that was necessary in this case?”

My question, Mr. Walbourne, again, is this: In going to the minister, was part of the reason for doing that because the chief of the defence staff also reports to the minister? You've been emphasizing that you had a direct reporting relationship. Would that have been a factor in why it was appropriate for you to go directly to the minister with this allegation?

[Gary Walbourne]

For sure, that was one of the leading factors. I'm given an informal complaint. I'm locked under the confidentiality. Where do I go?

I report to the same person that the chief reports to, fortunately or unfortunately, and I went looking for advice. There was no book. There was no manual of what to do with an allegation against the chief of the defence staff. I was in a difficult position. I believed it was the right place to go. For example, had I received a complaint about a lieutenant colonel who works for a colonel on a base, well, then, I'd go to that colonel to have that conversation.

In the hierarchy of things, it seems to be the right and natural place to go to look for advice and guidance. Who else would I go to?

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much.

Madam Chair, I'd like to give the remaining minute or so I have to Ms. May.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

All right.

Go ahead, Ms. May.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

I want to thank you so very much, Randall.

I want to thank you, Mr. Walbourne, for your service to this country and for standing up for the rights of victims.

I wonder if I can get your help to understand something. From your evidence, I understand that what you brought to your March 1 meeting was, in your words, incontrovertible evidence of wrongdoing by the chief of the defence staff. The minister didn't want to look at it, but you were also preserving the confidentiality of the victim.

I'm racking my brain to figure out what kind of physical evidence you could have with you that both protected the confidentiality that you had sworn to the victim and provided proof. Can you describe that evidence for the committee?

[Gary Walbourne]

This is getting very close to giving the details of the allegation, but let me see if I can try this for you.

As a supposition, if it were a written document, names could be redacted, dates could be redacted, and just the line of the evidence could be presented—as an example.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Walbourne, I don't want to push you into anything that would reveal identities or anything like that, but I'm trying to understand. If the evidence were of the nature of inappropriate expressions of sexual interest and was in a written document, might that be the kind of thing you had in your possession?

[Gary Walbourne]

I've gone about as far as I'm going to go in talking about that allegation.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Walbourne.

I also noted your reference to the decision of Mr. Justice Zinn. That was the case that involved Melanie Chapman, wasn't it? Mr. Justice Zinn went through a description of a lack of procedural fairness, which included that she was not given details of the charges that were against her and that she was not able to properly defend herself.

Would you say that the findings of Mr. Zinn in that case paralleled your own experience of what you described as “a hit job”, the effort to undermine you with various vindictive complaints of your conduct?

[Gary Walbourne]

That is correct.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you.

I appreciate the time. I'm sure I'm up.

Thank you very much, Randall.

Thank you, Mr. Walbourne.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Yes, you are.

Madame Gallant, go ahead, please.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you.

Through you, Madam Chair, to the witness, was this the first time you'd heard or seen concerns related to General Vance?

[Gary Walbourne]

This was the first time I was given evidence of inappropriate sexual behaviour.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Evidence...but you'd heard things.

[Gary Walbourne]

As I've travelled across this country, I've heard a lot of things.

I'll give you a quick example. I met with a 32-year serving member, an NCO in the Canadian Armed Forces, who told me a story about the first 10 years of her time in the Canadian Armed Forces. It was absolutely brutal, but that person found a way to fix themselves. This is what I talk about with victims and self-actualization. They found the tools and resources they needed.

To answer your question, I've heard everything across this country.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you for that.

The PCO met with you the day after you met with Minister Sajjan. How much did they seem to know?

[Gary Walbourne]

They knew as much as the minister knew.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Okay.

It has been reported that the evidence of this is an email chain that has been made public. Would you confirm the public reporting?

[Gary Walbourne]

I am not going to confirm or deny anything about that allegation.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Janine Sherman told this committee that PCO did not have information that would have allowed any action to be taken in regard to your March 1 meeting with Minister Sajjan. Is this accurate?