National Defence Committee on March 12th, 2021

[LCdr Raymond Trotter]

Sir, again, I think if I were to answer that question, it may put the complainant into a position where she may be uncomfortable or that may identify her, so I'm going to have to refer back to CFNIS for that information.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Okay.

You said earlier that you were surprised and shocked to learn of the allegations against Jonathan Vance. If I understood correctly, you learned about that situation after reporting Mr. McDonald's.

Am I right?

[LCdr Raymond Trotter]

Sir, I'd have to look at the timeline again, but the report made to me about the sexual misconduct regarding Admiral McDonald was on February 3. I'd have to look back at the newsfeeds on when it came out about General Vance. I can't answer that right now. I'm sorry.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Is—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Excuse me.

We will move on to Mr. Garrison, please.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'd like to pass my time in this round on to my neighbour, MP Elizabeth May.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

I am deeply grateful, Randall, for the opportunity.

Thank you, Lieutenant-Commander Trotter. Your testimony has been extremely helpful.

I want to dig a little into the issue that Randall has already described as the narrative of “knocking on the wrong door” and how it is working. When you finally get the door open, does anyone answer?

You made the comment that the issue of the Zoom call—and what you viewed as inappropriate sexual innuendo concerning a female officer and the background of the room—had been raised by someone else. This person had come forward and was prepared to go on the record, but when you filed your complaint you found that it was the first entry, and there was nothing else in the data bank.

I inferred from what you said that you had good reason to believe that someone actually complained but that their complaint was not recorded. I'd like to make sure I have correctly understood what you said, which was that you had good reason to believe that someone had complained on the record but the complaint was not recorded.

[LCdr Raymond Trotter]

Ma'am, that's correct. Again, I can't infer who, how or what, but I was made aware by the complainant who made the complaint to me that she had received an email from the chief petty officer doing the investigation. He didn't get the information from her, so there must have been somebody else who made a complaint about it. Whether it was on the record or not, I have no idea.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

The culture you have described here is one in which the petty officer would be investigating his boss, if he took it seriously. Was this issue being treated by the culture as something that you shouldn't have complained about and, therefore, minimizing it?

It strikes me that this is an incident worth the committee's attention as a very clear indication of a cultural problem. This was essentially a public call where a senior officer thought it was okay to communicate sexual innuendo with female officers, and he did not understand what he was doing was wrong.

Is that your sense from that experience?

[LCdr Raymond Trotter]

Ma'am, again, I believe that incident is under investigation. I think it would be inappropriate for me to make inferences about what people thought and comment on them.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Okay. I'm sure my time is just about up.

I just want to thank you, again, for coming forward and for standing up for women victims within the armed forces to clean up the culture there. We need more people like you.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Go ahead, Mr. Benzen, please.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Commander Trotter, for being here today.

Admiral McDonald only stepped aside after the investigation about him was made public in the press.

Commander Trotter, did the Canadian Forces national investigation service contact you and have any discussions about how this information was leaked to the press?

[LCdr Raymond Trotter]

No, sir.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

I am curious why you felt it was necessary to have a lawyer here with you today on your appearance?

[LCdr Raymond Trotter]

I don't believe he's actually on the call with me today.

I am not a lawyer. I drive warships for a living. If somebody wants to learn how to do that, I can teach them. However, when it comes to parliamentary stuff, I obviously needed some sort of legal advice so I didn't say anything that was out of bounds. That's why.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Okay.

I am curious about some of the testimony you gave about threats against you. Do you fear returning to work in the Canadian Navy after your testimony here today?

[LCdr Raymond Trotter]

That is a very good question, sir.

I have received phone calls from senior officers I trust, on this coast, within senior levels, who have relayed to me that they have their trust in me and that I'm an asset to the organization, but internalized to me.... I mean, you can tell somebody who is depressed “just don't be depressed”. Well, okay.

The chain of command can reassure me and they can do a lot of things for me to say you're an asset to this organization, but ultimately I'm here in front of the country talking about very sensitive things. I would say that my future is uncertain. I don't know how I feel about returning to work. Obviously, I'm going to have to have a discussion with my integrated health team providers and my chain of command. I don't want to get too long-winded, but I hope that answers your question.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

I think it's a worry, when you're coming forth to give this kind of information to this committee and to Canada, that you have to think about the fact that there might be reprisals to you when you go back to work. That's what you're worried about. There could be setbacks for your career at this point and you feel that's a possibility.

[LCdr Raymond Trotter]

To answer your question, sir, yes, but the “why” is probably better. When I took a commission as an officer in the Canadian Armed Forces I swore an oath to Queen and country to fulfill my duties, and there's the old adage of service before self. There may be blowback. There may be career implications—that's just supposition, I don't know—but I have had assurances from some people in my chain of command that they have my back and that they trust me.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Because of the threats against you, did you feel at any point, or do you feel now, that you have to take any personal protective measures to protect yourself from any of these threats?

[LCdr Raymond Trotter]

Yes.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

What kinds of protective measures are you taking, or have you taken?

[LCdr Raymond Trotter]

So far, I am very engaged with my integrated health care team to make sure that my mental fitness is good, because if my mental fitness isn't good, I'm not good. I'm working on physical fitness as well, but with respect to my future employment within the Canadian Forces, everybody needs to pay bills. I have four young children and I have a wife who is a registered nursing student, so I have concerns. As for how those things transpire, I can't tell the future.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much.

We will move on to Mr. Baker, please.