National Defence Committee on March 12th, 2021

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Trotter, for being here today and for your testimony.

I want to ask a few questions on a range of topics and hopefully I have enough time.

I understand that you've been asked by a number of MPs at this committee about the timing of the alleged event and you've not wanted to talk about it, understandably, because you're trying to protect the person who has come forward.

Tell me if you can't answer this. Are you able to share with us if this is an incident that happened after the appointment to chief of the defence staff?

[LCdr Raymond Trotter]

It happened prior to the appointment as chief of the defence staff, but to get into any further specifics about timeline I'm basically going to provide the same answer about it being under investigation with CFNIS.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

That's understood. That's understandable.

We know that you spoke about someone called Amelie who contacted you. I think we know now that this is someone who is the chief of staff to the departmental assistance office. She works within the department, not for the minister's office.

I know that you've agreed to have your lawyer look at your timeline of events and then share that with us. Can you talk to us a little bit about the timing? This is from the time that you reported this allegation to the time that the CFNIS contacted you. Can you tell me about that?

[LCdr Raymond Trotter]

Yes, I can. My initial contact with the SMRC...because, as I understand it, the first contact from CFNIS to me was from a warrant officer in Ottawa who got the message passed to him from SMRC. The first time I talked to the SMRC was at nine o'clock in the morning Pacific time on February 4. The second time I talked to the SMRC, which was when they called me back to verify that they're not a reporting tool, was at 12:52 p.m. Pacific time. There was, say, a four-hour time difference between the two SMRC calls.

In terms of being contacted by CFNIS in Ottawa, that was roughly, say, 3 p.m. on February 4. It was another two hours from.... Now, again, I don't know whether it was my first call or my second call that made it to CFNIS.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Forgive me if I misunderstood, but just for my clarity, did all this happen on the same day? Am I understanding that correctly?

[LCdr Raymond Trotter]

It did all happen on the same day, sir.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

In my view, it's important that this committee right now understand how we can address this issue of sexual harassment, sexual assault, within the Canadian Armed Forces. I'm wondering if you could share with us some of your thoughts. You've spoken to....

I don't want to put words in your mouth. Can you just share with us what type of process should be undertaken when someone brings forward a complaint? What resources should be available to the person bringing forward the allegations? How should that investigation process be handled in terms of the reporting, investigation and so on?

Could you share your advice with us?

[LCdr Raymond Trotter]

Again, that kind of analysis in terms of policy implementation and procedures is well above my pay grade. It's at the coal face of it that you need to have somebody within your chain of command, hopefully an officer if not a senior enlisted member, to trust to come forward to. That's what I can speak to. There has to be that trust relationship.

Above that, it's well above my pay grade to answer those questions.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I appreciate it. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Bezan, go ahead please.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank Lieutenant-Commander Trotter for his very brave coming forward. I really appreciate that.

You exemplify what we expect of all our members of the Canadian Armed Forces: truth, valour, bravery and honour. You're doing all the right things and standing up for those who were subjected to sexual misconduct. I applaud you for that.

I know that there are many more in the Canadian Armed Forces, men and women, who would do exactly the same thing, so you are leading by example.

We do know about, and you talked about, the call with Amelie Armstrong.

Madam Chair, this is an individual of interest now. I believe that we need to have her before the committee so that we can get her side of the story. Definitely, you felt that you were talking to the minister's office. As someone who used to be the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of National Defence, I can tell you that the office of the chief of staff to the Department of National Defence is closer to the minister's office than the parliamentary secretary's office is.

I know that Ms. Vandenbeld would agree with that. We have an office that's down across the floor but everybody is on the same floor. They're on the executive floor within the Department of National Defence, so there was nothing to say that she didn't walk down to the minister's office, past the elevators, and have that conversation with the minister's staff. That's why we need to talk to Ms. Armstrong.

You mentioned, Commander, the special treatment that commanding officers seem to get and the exemptions that they're given through the claims of sexual misconduct. I don't know if you saw The Fifth Estate report last night. They were talking about the issues of.... Do we have bells or is that just the House closing?

I'm sorry about that.

That story, again, was about women being sexually assaulted and experiencing other forms of sexual misconduct. Through Operation Honour, rather than properly providing punitive penalties, all too often it is just administrative measures and the careers of these perpetrators have been able to continue up the path.

Would you agree, Commander, that there's not a harsh enough line being taken to change the culture within the Canadian Armed Forces when it comes to sexual misconduct?

[LCdr Raymond Trotter]

I would have to say that the answer to that question is probably well above my pay grade. It may be something that would require a look from an independent body outside of the Canadian Armed Forces.

I've never experienced a situation where there was inappropriate behaviour and the respondent was promoted and the complainant was left out. I've never personally come across those situations. I have the information that you have from The Fifth Estate.

Again, I don't think I'm in a position that I could provide—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

You did mention...not in the case we're dealing with of the chief of the defence staff right now, but you made reference to the other situation that happened on the Zoom call. You then had the chief petty officer investigate his boss, which we know wouldn't result in a fair process for the victim. Again, that speaks to a bigger issue that, when you go to higher levels of command, they can influence and obstruct justice more, and any investigations that need to take place.

Would you agree with that?

[LCdr Raymond Trotter]

In the instance that I spoke about, I would agree that there was a conflict of interest, and that the appointed investigator was not the appropriate person. I can speak to that one.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Okay. I appreciate that.

Commander, without going into any detail, and you've been very good at making sure that we don't interfere in the investigation against Admiral McDonald, would you say that in the vetting process of trying to determine who would be the next chief of the defence staff, if they had dug deeply enough, they would have uncovered the accusations or the allegations against Admiral McDonald before they appointed him CDS?

Do you feel that this was one of those situations that nobody else knew about?

[LCdr Raymond Trotter]

I don't know the answer to that question, sir.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much.

We'll go on to Mr. Spengemann, please.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Lieutenant-Commander Trotter, thank you for being with us. Thank you for your service. Thank you for your service in Afghanistan and the courage you displayed there. Thank you for your courage today. I want to echo many of my colleagues and their comments that you exemplify the ethic that should be systemically present within the Canadian Forces on this particular issue.

You've had some exchanges with colleagues on the fact that these are allegations against senior officers, and I just want to refer you to and get your thoughts on the Department of National Defence administrative directives. There's a series 9000 and, in particular, 9005-1 on reporting of sexual misconduct.

Was that framework useful? Did you consult that when you made your decisions? If it wasn't useful, what were some of the obstacles in that framework that potentially should be looked at and maybe changed?

[LCdr Raymond Trotter]

Sir, yes, the framework was useful within that defence order. I had read it when it came out. I familiarized myself with it again when I undertook the training to be the op task coordinator, op task OPI, for my unit.

With respect to the reporting on the Admiral McDonald incident, I didn't necessarily have it sitting in front of me, and I don't think there was much guidance in there to help me in that situation. I think it's useful and a step in the right direction. The guidance in there is clear.

I hope that answers your question.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you. It's helpful. Thank you, Lieutenant-Commander.

I want to thank you for your allyship. I think in a broader and deeper sense, it's incredibly important that this committee recognize—and I think it has in so many ways—that women cannot and should not be doing this work alone, not just the most serious cases of allegations of harassment or assault but also the general issue of gender equality, diversity and inclusion in the Canadian Forces.

I'm wondering if you could maybe spend a bit of time taking the committee through your career path, how your thoughts have evolved on this question of gender equality, how you've seen the culture evolve or change—or maybe it hasn't changed at all—from when you started serving to where it is now and if there are some good things that happened.

What should the committee focus on with respect to recommendations to make sure that these good things are consolidated but also broadened to really change the system to be much more reflective of what you're doing today in terms of coming forward and eliminating this kind of conduct?

[LCdr Raymond Trotter]

My military service to this point started out at the Royal Military College of Canada after basic training. It had been a number of years since women were introduced into the military college, naval service and submarine service. For me, when I came into that environment.... I can only speak for me. I think it was a very good and trusting environment. That's the generation in which I grew up in the navy.

My experience after leaving the Royal Military College was that, upon joining the fleet out here on the west coast, I had mentors and tutelage with respect to navigation and bridge watchkeeping on the bridge of a ship. There were female executive officers. There have been other great examples of great female leadership. With respect to my experiences, they've been very positive.

Now, I can't speak to how the women feel about those experiences. I think what's important here is that there is likely a generational divide within the Canadian Armed Forces about issues surrounding women in the service, LGBTQ, openness and sexual misconduct. There is a certain.... As soon as you hit a certain rank and age level, above that is one type of culture, and then below that is a different type of culture. There might be a bit of a grey zone there where people were raised in both.

I would say that definitely I'm in the lower half of that where it's been positive for me but, again, I can't speak for the females who served alongside me.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Lieutenant-Commander, thank you.

I think I'm very short of time. If I could sneak in a very quick question—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

No. I'm sorry, Mr. Spengemann. It's not going to work today.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Mr. Fortin, you have the floor.