Yes, but I—
Evidence of meeting #20 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ombudsman.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #20 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ombudsman.
A video is available from Parliament.
3:30 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Yes, Madam Chair.
I have five minutes. Earlier, the minister made a 10-minute presentation, and I do not want him to repeat it.
Minister, on March 1, 2018... You say that Mr. Walbourne told you that a sexual harassment complaint had been filed against the highest-ranking officer in the military, the Chief of the Defence Staff. That's a big deal.
Because the ombudsman was dealing with this matter and was not sure how to handle it, he asked you for advice. According to him, you told him not to bother you anymore, and not to come back to you and tell you what to do. You are telling us that it's not what happened. According to you, you told him to go see the Canadian Forces provost marshal or the military police, an independent body. He then left.
Did you check with them to see if they had received this complaint? Did the provost marshal, the judge advocate general or the military police hear from the ombudsman in connection with this matter? Did you check that?
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, first of all, the ombudsman is to investigate and be independent of the chain of command regardless of the rank.
To answer your question directly about follow-up, absolutely not. That's called interference in an investigation by involving myself. If you're asking me to interfere in an investigation, I will tell you straight, absolutely not. As a former police officer, I would not—
3:30 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Mr. Minister, that's not what I'm asking you. Don't get defensive about that, because I'm not accusing you of intervening.
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
That's what you did ask me. You asked me if I followed up.
3:30 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
I'm not accusing you of intervening. What I'm saying is that, in my opinion, you didn't intervene enough, but that's another issue.
The ombudsman told you there was a problem, and you told him to go see three other authorities: the judge advocate general, the Canadian Forces provost marshal and the military police, but you didn't follow up on it. After that, did you ask the ombudsman to—
Actually, Mr. Minister, did you think that what the ombudsman told you about the chief of the defence staff was serious and important?
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Absolutely it was important, Madam Chair. That's why I took it so serious—
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, if I can't answer my question....
Can I answer the question or not?
3:30 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
The question is this.
What did you do? Why didn't you intervene?
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
I cannot intervene because it would be obstruction of an investigation. No politician should do that. If you want to do something like that, that is your prerogative. I can assure you, I will not. You cannot. I'm trying to tell you—
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
If you let me finish, I'll be able to explain this a little bit better if you give me the opportunity. This is important.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Those things that I pointed out are not just for me. Those are the directives given to the ombudsman office that was created when the office was created. If an allegation comes in, it's in those directives where the ombudsman can go for that advice.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Coming to me for advice is not.... It's supposed to be the other way around.
3:35 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
The ombudsman told you that he was in a difficult position and that he didn't know how to do his job because it was the chief of the defence staff. He asked you to advise him because you are the minister. You were the only superior, the only authority he could ask. As I understand it, you didn't help him.
Did you at least try to talk to him after that and ask him if he found a solution to the problem?
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
I gave him the direct advice, which was to go to the appropriate authorities, in this case here, the Privy Council Office, which is in charge of Governor in Council appointments. In his own testimony he said they followed up immediately the next day.
Madam Chair, it is extremely important to look at those directives that our ombudsman must comply with. He should not have to come to me for advice. It's the ombudsman's job and role to give the minister advice.
3:35 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Mr. Minister, in your opinion, how many times has the chief of the defence staff been the subject of a sexual harassment complaint?
Before Mr. McDonald and Mr. Vance, were there others that you know of?
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
I don't know, because investigations are supposed to be done independent of elected officials.
