National Defence Committee on March 12th, 2021

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Well, it's because Madam Deschamps called for this.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

You're telling me to take action but I'm telling you it's interference, and you're saying that my doing this is creating this unicorn. I'm sorry. You're trying to paint me into a corner and trying to paint this picture.

Madam Chair, I'm not going to let the member try to do this. It is absolutely wrong. I'll be honest with you. I know the member well and for him to do this I find it wrong. I'm happy to answer questions, but the line of questioning he's taking is trying to tarnish.... If there is legitimate wrong, I'm happy to answer those questions, but he's not allowing me to.

You can't paint a picture and then expect me not to respond to that.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I'm asking about the recommendation of Madam Deschamps.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I was trying. The deputy minister would have given you information on that if you would have allowed it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

All right. Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Bezan, please.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I'll just follow up on Mr. Garrison's comments. I want to talk about the directive and the role of ombudsman.

It says right in the DAOD 5047-1 under part 4 that the ombudsman “(a) shall investigate any matter referred to the Ombudsman by written direction of the Minister”.

A memo was circulated by the media that came through access to information. It's a memo from the Privy Council Office, dated March 16, 2018. It says here, in the very last bullet:

The directive suggests this would prevent the Ombudsperson from investigating. Typically, the Ombudsperson would investigate a complaint to the effect that one of those processes failed a complainant.

That is that they didn't give consent.

Minister, do you believe that? You keep blaming the ombudsman, but until he had consent from the complainant, he couldn't move forward. He also needed written direction from you. Did you provide that written direction?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

That's not true. Just because you read that directive here, that investigation does not include investigation powers when it comes to claims like this, especially when it comes to criminal or police investigations.

That is absolutely wrong. The ombudsman does not need my permission to conduct—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

You're confirming then, Minister, that the ombudsman can't direct, but you can. Why didn't you direct it to an outside police force to make sure it was investigated properly?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

We made sure the information that the person had can actually go directly. Me getting involved in the evidentiary chain is wrong.

JAG, I don't know if you want to add to—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I want to ask questions to the minister.

Michael Wernick, the former clerk of the Privy Council, has confirmed he was aware on March 2 and was part of the memo that was circulated in the media through access to information.

Did you ever speak to the former clerk of the Privy Council about these allegations around General Vance? Are you aware of anyone else from your office who was speaking to him?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I did not speak to the former clerk regarding this because my asking any more questions about any type of allegation or investigation like this would be considered interference.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Is it okay for your political staff—your former chief of staff, Zita Astravas—to have those conversations on your behalf with the ombudsman and with the Privy Council Office?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Let's be clear here. My chief of staff made sure the Privy Council was informed. That's exactly what we needed to do because, as the member knows, because he stated that he knows the National Defence Act extremely well and he was the parliamentary secretary for national defence....

By the way, I have a few questions regarding his actions at—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I get to ask the questions here, Minister, as you know.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Let me answer the question here.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Minister, I just want to go forward.

We know that on March 5, your former chief of staff emailed the ombudsman to follow up on a conversation she had with Janine Sherman. How many people in your office were aware that Ms. Sherman had followed up with Mr. Walbourne?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Our job was—as my chief of staff had forwarded the information—to make sure that was done. At that time, we needed to make sure that the independence of the investigation was to occur. Once we had confirmation that they had received the information, our involvement was to be left out, because our getting further involved is an impediment of the investigation.

What we needed to do was to make sure it got there, and in Mr. Walbourne's own testimony, they contacted him the next day.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

At any point were there any meetings or conference calls between senior members of your office or the deputy minister's office and the Privy Council Office on this topic?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I can speak on my behalf of my team that we had made sure we did a follow-up to make sure that the Privy Council had the appropriate information, and they did.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Were any of your political staff or staff from the Prime Minister's Office involved in those meetings and conference calls with the Privy Council Office, the ombudsman's office potentially and/or the deputy minister's office?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

As I stated, me, the Prime Minister or any politician should not get involved in an investigation. What we needed to do—and we did—was to make sure the information got to the Privy Council Office, who are responsible for governor in council appointments, and you obviously would know this—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I get quite a kick out of this memo from Privy Council that keeps referring to General Vance as a GIC appointee instead of using the name, so it's kind of like code words like we had with Admiral Mark Norman.

We know that sometime in March, your former chief of staff contacted Elder Marques, who was a senior adviser to the Prime Minister, regarding these allegations against General Vance. Were you aware that senior staff from your office were also talking to the Prime Minister's Office? How were they involved?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

During the time when this incident took place, my chief of staff not only contacted the Privy Council Office but also contacted Mr. Marques to inform him of what was transpiring.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

You and the Prime Minister had your first conversation about General Vance—