National Defence Committee on March 12th, 2021

[RAdm Geneviève Bernatchez]

We at National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces encourage all members to report any incident of inappropriate sexual behaviour. Allegations of service offences are investigated when a complaint is made or where there are other reasons to believe that a service offence may have been committed.

In that sense, an affected person can make a complaint to the military police. A victim or survivor can make a complaint to the military police. A third party can make a complaint to the military police, and an anonymous person can make a report to the military police.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much.

We'll go on to Mr. Benzen, please.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I will be sharing part of my time with my colleague Alex Ruff.

Minister, I'd like to turn to General Vance's pay raise and the order in council on May 9, 2019, that gave him a $45,000 a year pay raise, a significant pay raise. You were responsible for bringing that to cabinet. I'm wondering, before the decision was made, did you inform the cabinet of the uninvestigated sexual misconduct allegations against Mr. Vance so they could take that into consideration before they gave him his raise?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, I'm not involved in any of the performance pay. It has nothing to do with cabinet.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

You're not responsible for bringing that to cabinet.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I'm not. Performance pay has nothing to do with.... I'm the Minister of National Defence. It has nothing to do with me when it comes to those things.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

You have no part in his performance review.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I don't have any part in his performance pay.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Would there be a review done before he was given a raise?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I would not know because I'm not part of that process.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Okay. Thank you very much.

It seems to me that you really didn't take the allegations seriously—and you said you have—because clearly you know that the system right now that we have is dysfunctional, and that's why we've had all these reports done. You simply did not follow up on seeing if these allegations were ever investigated. I'm just curious why. You say you took it seriously, but it appears you didn't take it seriously at all.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

No, I absolutely took it seriously. I completely disagree with the assertion. When any inappropriate information comes, it is to make sure that I take immediate action. That was taken.

Doing follow-up, my intervening, is a potential interference with an investigation, and that's why you don't do those things.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

The one thing we've learned in the last month from all the testimony we've heard here is that there is no way an independent investigation could have been done appropriately and independently. We know that. The system is toxic and dysfunctional. You're the one person who was stepped out of that who could have helped that happen, but you didn't do it.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

No, that's absolutely wrong. In fact, as the Minister of National Defence.... I'm sorry, but no politician should ever be directing an investigation or getting involved in investigations. That's absolutely wrong, and I will unequivocally state this and, even as a private citizen, will fight that no politician should be involved.

Take it this way, Madam Chair, through you. The military police are police officers in the Canadian military, just like there is a police force in our civil society. We don't go directing them. We don't get to ask for briefings from them. Information is provided to them. They make the decisions as to which way an investigation goes. It goes to a judicial process. It goes to court if it gets to that level, and the information does come out. That's exactly what is happening.

What we need to make sure is that any allegation gets to the appropriate independent authority so that appropriate action can be taken. Anything otherwise, like our getting involved, is impeding an investigation, and you don't want politicians to get involved in that.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Thank you.

I'll cede the rest of my time to Alex Ruff, please.

[Alex Ruff, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister, what is the slogan of the Royal Canadian Regiment?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I don't know.

[Alex Ruff, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

It's “Never Pass a Fault”.

When did Operation Honour start?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I believe it was during the Conservative time.

[Alex Ruff, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

It was February, 2015.

What is the mission statement of Operation Honour?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Why don't you tell me.

[Alex Ruff, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

It's “To ensure sexual misconduct is never minimized, ignored or excused so that the CAF cultivates the inclusive and respectful work environment that embodies the ethical principles and core values of the profession of arms.”

Who does the CDS report to?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

The CDS reports to the Minister of National Defence.

[Alex Ruff, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Who is accountable and responsible for the Department of National Defence?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Me.