National Defence Committee on March 12th, 2021

[Alex Ruff, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

In your opinion, who is responsible and accountable for the failure of this allegation being investigated?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, through you, with all due respect for the line of questioning, what you're trying to do is talk about a police investigation and judicial process and make it seem like I have the ultimate authority.

With all due respect, that's not true. My job is to make sure that for any allegations that come forward there's a proper process in place.

Madam Chair, the member knows very well that in terms of this we have clear processes in place to have the independence of our police, that it has to be independent of our political system, and our judiciary needs to be independent.

Yes, I'm absolutely responsible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much.

We'll move on to Mr. Robillard.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here today.

I would like to start by acknowledging your passion for the Canadian Armed Forces, the equality of men and women and the protection of all its members. I apologize in advance if my questions seem to be repetitive, but I believe it is important that there be no doubts whatsoever.

The ombudsman confirmed that he was aware of the directives that governed him. He had already stated as much before this committee in 2014, and he issued a press release about how to manage cases of sexual harassment in 2015.

Do you know why he would have bypassed the options available to him and went to see you?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, I don't have the answer to this question. I would hope that the ombudsman or anybody who has any information would go to the appropriate authorities. In this case, just like in civil society, you go to the police, and in this, for us, there are proper processes in place. You go to the military police and we have a separate investigative service for this that's independent of the chain of command.

The ombudsman is also independent of the chain of command. Where they say that, well, the chief of the defence staff reports to me, the chief of the defence staff is part of the chain of command. That should have no bearing on any actions that need to be taken. If a complaint comes forward, regardless of rank, it needs to be taken seriously. In this case here, that's exactly what took place, and as needs to take place, the very next day the appropriate authorities in this case here, who govern Governor in Council positions, were informed of this to make sure that the proper follow-up was done.

This is to take it out of the political sphere and put it in the hands of independents so that the information can go to the appropriate place, whether that's the police authorities or any other action that can be taken independently.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Minister, the ombudsman stated that he came to you for advice on how to deal with allegations of this nature.

I was wondering if you could clarify the following: Is it the ombudsman's role to ask for advice from the minister?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I took a look at this. When the ombudsman's office was created, it was created so that there was a separate entity from the chain of command that members of the Canadian Armed Forces could go to to have their concerns heard and action could be taken independent of the chain of command.

Also, the ombudsman's office does a lot of other work as well, for example, taking a look at members' issues of pay or other types of issues that need to be changed to give the minister the advice. The role of the ombudsman is actually to give advice to the minister, not the other way around.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Minister, you and the Prime Minister said that politicians should not interfere in investigations. We saw opposition members, such as our esteemed colleague Mr. Bezan, criticize you for not getting involved in this matter. Yet, he stated previously that political interference undermines the justice system.

Could you clarify for this committee what he should already know, and tell us why politicians should not investigate allegations of misconduct?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

That is such a dangerous path to ever go down, to have elected officials be able to start and direct investigations. We normally look at other countries that can do this, and we've seen other countries that go down this path. There's an absolute reason in our democracies....

We have separate systems. We have the political systems that all of us are a part of. We have our police that are independent, and then we have our judicial system that is independent. Inside the military, our military police are trained police officers just like in civil society. Information needs to go to them, and they conduct investigations independent of the chain of command.

For any politician, including me.... Yes, I'm in charge of the ministry and the entire national defence. For me to launch an investigation on any individual, as a politician, or to direct an investigation, my God, that's absolutely wrong. We should never be doing that. Anybody suggesting that is also wrong, but it's up to them if they want to pursue that and explain that to Canadians.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you.

We move on to Monsieur Fortin, please.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister, I understand that your position is that you cannot investigate. I don't believe that anyone here thinks that you should have investigated. However, as you mentioned, we believe that you were responsible for what was happening and what was ultimately within the realm of the Department of National Defence.

I understand that you do not agree with us. You say that you could not get involved as that would have constituted interference.

However, you also told us that you ensured that the Privy Council was informed. You told me earlier that you had some discussions about this matter—you do not know how many—with people at Privy Council afterwards.

We also know that nothing ever happened. General Vance was never investigated and he never faced any charges.

In the end, would you say that the Privy Council was not up to the task, Minister?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

When it comes to my role, as you were talking about, yes, I am in charge of national defence.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Minister, in your view, did the Privy Council do its job? We have just a few seconds.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, I'm sorry the interpretation was slow. I apologize.

In this case, what I can do is talk about my actions here. The information was provided to them. We can also, with Mr. Walbourne's testimony—

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Do you believe that the Privy Council did its job?

Are you disappointed—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

I'll let it go a little longer, so please let the minister answer. I'll give you a few seconds extra at the end, please, Monsieur Fortin.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I can't talk about the actions of others. I can talk about what we did. One thing I can assure you, which has already come out in testimony, is that they did follow up with them and that the right people had the information to go forward. I don't know why the ombudsman would not provide the information or take other steps. That is not for me to decide. I have to remain independent from that.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

You told us that you informed the Privy Council, and that those people were informed the next day. That is what you are saying in your defence. You are telling us that you subsequently spoke to them about this matter several times. Yet, we know that no action was ever taken.

I asked you if you were disappointed. Would you say that the Privy Council did not do its job? Is that what I am to take away from this?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

First of all, I never spoke to the Privy Council. It's only through my staff I would ask the question. I did not want to, because that would be interference with it. I'm not here to describe their actions, because I can't.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much.

We move to Mr. Garrison, please.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

With respect, Mr. Minister, your whole argument today seems to turn on the existence of what I would call a “unicorn”, and that's the magical, independent authority that exists to investigate claims of sexual misconduct against the chief of the defence staff.

When you cite the ombudsman's office, we know that the military ombudsman has no legislative authority. It was created by a directive from the minister and reports to the minister. The PCO, as I mentioned before, reports to the Prime Minister, and with regard to order in council appointments, really, does little more than assemble résumés and check references. It's not an investigative body in any way.

My final proof that this body doesn't exist is that in her report on sexual misconduct in the Canadian military, in April 2015, Madam Justice Deschamps called for the creation of an independent authority, and for that independent authority to be given responsibility for services to victims, responsibility for taking complaints and responsibility for investigations.

Nearly six years ago we had a recommendation that such an independent authority be created. Today you're trying to say it already exists when, if it did, why did Madam Deschamps make this recommendation? Of course, if it doesn't, why haven't we followed up on her recommendation six years later?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, I'll have the deputy minister talk about some of the aspects of SMRC and Madam Deschamps' report. The work they have been doing with Dr. Preston is significant progress, but we know we have more work to do.

The member talked about a “unicorn”. I'm sorry. When it comes to independence of investigations from politicians, if you think that's a unicorn, that's for you to decide. For me, it is absolutely fundamental to make sure that the politicians are not involved with any type of investigation because it needs to be absolutely independent.

There is a process in place. Having said this, we need to make improvements to it and we will.

Deputy Minister, could you add some thoughts to that, please?

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

No, thank you very much, Minister.

You know good and well that I'm not saying that lack of political interference is the unicorn. I'm saying there is no independent authority and that authority....

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I'm having a hard time understanding what you're saying because—