National Defence Committee on March 12th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you. Time is up. We let that go for a little while longer than normal.

Go ahead, Madam Vandenbeld.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here today.

Minister, we know that you've spent your entire career protecting people and serving, serving our country and our people, and your dedication to equality and inclusion is something that has run throughout your career. It's evident today that you took every effort possible to make sure that this investigation was not politicized and that the proper processes were followed.

At the end of the day, when you have somebody who doesn't want to go through a formal investigation and complaint, what it does tell us is that—and we've heard this from other places—there is an issue in the Canadian Armed Forces of people who, for whatever reason, are afraid to come forward. They're afraid of reprisal. They're afraid of what it will do to their careers. I know that you talked about all options being on the table and of making sure that we continue to do the important work to fix this problem.

You mentioned in your opening remarks an independent external review. You also mentioned independent reporting structures. Are there other things? For instance, we know that peer support is very important. We know that sometimes what women need is to just talk to other people who have been through the same thing, because it can feel very difficult when you feel like you're the only one. I know that some very brave volunteers have been doing this kind of peer support.

Is there anything in the works that would help to provide either funding or support to these kinds of groups similar to what combat trauma experiences would be? Is there anything you're working on to make sure that happens?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

This is the heart of everything that we should be focused on: How can we make the lives of our women and men in the Canadian Armed Forces, especially women who have dealt with such horrible situations....?

Even though we have made great progress, for example, in having great representation and creating a pipeline of more women to go into those positions. I sign off on general officer promotions. We started with six general officers and now we have fourteen, and we are going to have a vice-chief of the defence staff who will be a female.

My goal was to make sure that the pipeline goes throughout the Canadian Armed Forces so that you have greater representation, but we also need to deal with what is in front of us. We need to have a place where people don't get bounced around and we have empowering stories like this where they know exactly where to go to get to a place where they can have their stories heard and be empowered to know that they can go forward, and if they don't want to, that they can get the right support when they need it, and more importantly, get the legal advice and get the police connection too if it's needed. One place, that's what we are working towards.

We also need to look at the independence. We're seeing more often now, and through the most recent examples, that people felt that there were going to be reprisals. Even though we have very aggressively dealt with this, we clearly have much more work to do on this. We have an independent military justice review that is currently ongoing, but ultimately, I feel that total culture change is going to happen when we have more women who are well-supported inside the Canadian Armed Forces, so that this cannot continue. If it does, they will know that every single one of them has the ability—so they cannot ever be told they can't say anything—to come forward and know that actions will be taken. If somebody doesn't listen to them seriously, there will be consequences for anybody who interferes with that.

That's where we need to get to. It is actually happening now, but obviously, it is not happening to the extent that we want.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Minister, while there have been a number of resources and number of things that are in place for survivors, we've heard a number of survivors say that they don't know what those are.

I've heard mention of “no wrong door”. Is there something that you are planning to do—maybe something online—that would allow people, the women and the male allies, to know exactly what resources are available and where they can turn?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Yes. In fact, we do have a website on this and there are other mechanisms in place, but we do need to do better. I'll ask my deputy minister to elaborate on some of the more detailed work that has been done.

[Jody Thomas]

Thank you.

This is as much in the judge advocate general's field as it is in mine. There is a consolidated website that now shows all the access opportunities for anybody who wishes to report a situation, and also lists, in detail, all of the support mechanisms for those who have experienced trauma or wish to talk about their trauma, as part of our Bill C-77 response.

I think it would be more appropriate at this time if the judge advocate general were to detail that.

[RAdm Geneviève Bernatchez]

May I answer, Madam Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Go ahead.

[RAdm Geneviève Bernatchez]

Thank you.

As mentioned by the minister and the deputy minister, we've been hearing, as of late, that the main problem for those who wanted to take action was to know what to do and where to turn to take action. We very rapidly looked at a way to have a consolidated resource available.

There is a web page that was launched three days ago. It is found on the Government of Canada website. If you google “victims and survivors of service offence”, it will bring you directly to that incredibly important and useful tool, which we will keep on improving as time goes by. We will want the input of those who visit the web page to let us know what they want to see more of on it.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you.

We'll move on to Madam Alleslev.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much.

Janine Sherman testified to the committee that your office would have taken any orders in council through cabinet regarding appointees. Does that include a May 2019 order in council that raised General Vance's salary?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I'm not aware of that.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Minister, Her Excellency the Governor General, on the recommendation of the Prime Minister, fixes the remuneration and certain conditions of employment of General Vance, the chief of the defence staff, as set out in the annex schedule. The salary is in the range of $260,600 to $306,500, effective April 1, 2018. I guess it was backdated.

Is it your testimony that you did not take this OIC to cabinet?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I don't get involved with the salaries of public officials.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Minister, orders in council are decisions that are made by cabinet. Recommendations to the Prime Minister, to the Governor General, on an increase in salary are made by cabinet. Cabinet ministers would have signed this order in council.

Are you saying, Minister, that you were not one of the ministers who took this to cabinet?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

As I stated, I am not involved with salaries for public officials.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Some minister signed it. It's interesting, then, that the Minister of National Defence did not make a recommendation to the Prime Minister to take it to the Governor General to increase the chief of the defence staff's salary. Is that your testimony?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

As I stated, I don't get involved with the salary of public officials.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

You didn't advise—

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I can't give any more than that, unfortunately.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Did you advise any of your cabinet colleagues, including the Prime Minister, that there were unresolved sexual misconduct allegations against General Vance?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, as I've stated, when it comes to any information, it's always brought to the appropriate authorities so that independent investigations can be taken.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Did you make anyone aware that the investigation into the allegations had yet to be resolved around General Vance?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I reported this to the appropriate authorities. When it came to informing the Privy Council Office, the PMO was informed in terms of...that I had raised these concerns with the Privy Council Office. The Prime Minister only heard of this in the media like everybody else.

I don't get involved with the salaries of public officials.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Minister, does this investigation into these serious allegations remain outstanding today, or has the investigation into General Vance been completed and resolved?