Evidence of meeting #20 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ombudsman.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
No. Why would you ask advice from the Minister of National Defence? The ombudsman's job is to advise—
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
He was asking you for direction on this, and that's what was testified to.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
I don't want to argue with you.
I have a couple of quick questions for Deputy Minister Thomas, but first, one for you. When did you actually serve in Afghanistan? What years was your deployment, Minister?
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Okay, so you were there at the same time as General Vance.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
I'm going to say this again. Please don't insinuate what my experience was.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
I am not insinuating. I'm just asking if he was your friend.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
All right.
For Deputy Minister Thomas, she understandably would have a professional working relationship with the staff in the Prime Minister's Office. I'm wondering which members of the Prime Minister's Office she might have a more personal relationship with, above and beyond what the normal professional working relationship would be.
4:05 p.m.
Jody Thomas Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
Madam Chair, thank you for the question.
I wouldn't characterize my relationship with any members of the Prime Minister's Office as a friendship or anything beyond a working relationship.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Okay. It has been put on the record that you had the information at some point on the allegations against the chief of the defence staff. On either a professional or a personal level, when did you share the allegations that Mr. Walbourne relayed against the CDS with the people in the PMO?
4:05 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
Madam Chair, I was not involved in that information. I did not provide allegations or information to the Prime Minister's Office about this particular situation.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Deputy Minister Thomas, as for the envelope from the minister, the envelope that the ombudsman had supposedly given to the minister, to what envelope was she referring?
Maybe, Deputy Minister, you could tell the committee what envelope he brought in during that meeting on March 1, or maybe subsequently, that related to the allegations against the chief of the defence staff.
4:05 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
Madam Chair, I was not at that meeting on March 1. I don't know what envelope is being referred to.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
Thank you very much. Your time is up.
Mr. Bagnell, please. You have the floor.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
Thank you, Madam Chair.
For the minister, there were a couple of times where I didn't think you had the chance to completely answer questions. Before I start, if you want to complete your answers to any of the questions, please go ahead. Don't take too long, though, or I won't be able to get my questions in.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
March 12th, 2021 / 4:05 p.m.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
Thank you for your quick action on the same day or the next day. Thank you also for your sensitivity in making sure that you don't get technically involved and a perpetrator can't get off on a technicality.
The big study, the big problem we're looking at here—and I think all the committee members agree—is that we want women in the military to be comfortable, be able to come forward, be treated fairly, have the appropriate sentence for the perpetrator and not have it affect their careers.
I want you to speak to your passion about this in a minute, but I know that you've already done a lot—perhaps more than in history—with Bill C-77, the creation of the SMRC, the path to dignity and respect strategy and the response and support coordination for CAF members. All that had been done before we even started our hearings over the year, but obviously, for everyone on the committee and for yourself—and you've stated this—it's not enough.
We need new answers. I think members from all parties have brought this up. The procedures need to be clarified, and most importantly—as all the experts have said—the culture needs to be changed.
I would like you to speak about your passion. I know the members of the committee from all parties have that passion. They can't imagine a woman having something terrible happen in her career and for her not to be comfortable to come forward under our present system, as we've seen in a lot of the documentation before this committee and in this committee.
Speak to your passion about getting this problem solved or moving it forward as much as we can. It is a passion that I know committee members share.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
From day one, I have wanted to focus on how we can create a better environment for everyone in the Canadian Armed Forces, especially women, visible minorities, members of the LGBTQ community and indigenous people. We have seen the type of misconduct that has taken place, and we have to work on the changes. I could go through the list of changes, but we know that we have much more work to do.
That is what I want to focus on, the changes that we need to make. I would also like to be able to talk here about what greater independence looks like and how we can put greater trust into our people so that they can come forward. This is clearly something we need to work on. There is tremendous ability, even on your committee, to provide that advice.
We will be looking at all opportunities and at what the changes are that we need to make, for example, within the promotion system, as I have stated, having more women in key leadership roles, increasing our number and changing the policies that impact retention. We currently have a military justice review taking place by Justice Fish. We'll also have a separate, independent panel that will look at systemic racism and at gender bias, including issues facing LGBTQ members. That panel will also give us advice on systemic issues that we need to change.
As we look at addressing the immediate problem, which we absolutely have to do, the goal of this is to create that culture change and ultimately prevent these situations. That's the only way to get to a true zero-tolerance policy.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
Thank you, Minister.
The independence of various processes has been brought up a number of times, so I'm happy to hear from any witnesses or from anyone on the committee about how we can improve that. It has to be looked at.
I'd just like to ask a question of Ms. Bernatchez. Can the military police look into anonymous complaints?
4:10 p.m.
RAdm Geneviève Bernatchez
Hello, Madam Chair. May I answer the question?