Evidence of meeting #20 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ombudsman.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
The PCO's own memo said quite clearly he doesn't have the power to carry it out—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
Okay, stand by. That's enough now. We have to try to respect each other's opportunity to ask questions and answer accordingly. We're making the life of the interpreters challenging as well.
Thank you very much.
We move on to Mr. Spengemann, please.
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Madam Chair, thank you very much.
Minister, thank you for being with us again today and providing us with your testimony. I have a couple of quick questions at the outset.
Minister, I think you'll be aware that your former chief of staff has also been invited to appear at this committee. I'm wondering if you would think that she would have anything to add beyond the testimony that you've given, or are about to give.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, as you know, after the ombudsman spoke to me, I informed my chief of staff so that she could follow up with the appropriate individuals within the Privy Council, as she did. She also informed Elder Marques at the Prime Minister's Office. I'm here today to provide you with my testimony on this, but also on behalf of my staff involved in this matter.
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Minister, thank you.
What about Elder Marques? Would he have anything further to add beyond your testimony?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, as I have said, my chief of staff at the time informed the PMO of what was transpiring. There would be nothing further for him to add.
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Minister, I want to thank you for your strong position on the issue, your openness to considering all options and your recognition of the need to rebuild trust fundamentally. I certainly wouldn't want to profess to speak for any of my colleagues individually, but I have a sense that, as a whole, the committee is strongly aligned with your recognition of the need for change within the Canadian Armed Forces on the issue of sexual misconduct.
Minister, women join the Canadian Armed Forces in order to serve. Many of them will have been proud to follow in the tradition of their families from generations before them; however, because of the systemic nature of this issue of sexual misconduct, there's a high risk that they will be met with abusive, dehumanizing and degrading behaviour, and then with a feeling that they have nowhere to turn.
I would like to ask you, Minister, what is being done at the moment to empower survivors of sexual misconduct to come forward, and equally to empower those to come forward who see a duty to report or who may want to come forward because they no longer accept this culture of sexual misconduct?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, thank you very much for that question.
This is something we have taken to heart from day one: making sure that everybody who joins the Canadian Armed Forces, especially women, can have an inclusive environment to serve, to reach their full potential and ultimately to give that potential to the Canadian Armed Forces.
Through our conversations we have been having about processing stuff, what we haven't been discussing much are the women who have actually come forward and the courage that has taken. More work needs to be done.
What we have done is change the policies in place to make sure that people will be held to account. The military police have a special unit now that's designed to investigate situations of sexual misconduct such as this. We've also passed the declaration of victims rights bill, Bill C-77, to make sure they have appropriate support.
Madam Chair, I think the most important thing coming out of this is that we need greater representation at all senior levels. Something I've been focused on from day one is creating a pipeline where more women can come to the senior levels. When I became Minister of National Defence, we had six female generals. Today we have 14. We need to grow that number still, because we know that once we have more women and increase our numbers, and more importantly, they're in senior, meaningful positions, culture change will happen because women will be at the table.
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Minister, thank you very much for that.
I'm wondering if I could ask you a follow-up question on the issue of culture. You called for a total culture change. The committee, in this Parliament and the previous one, has heard a lot of testimony about culture, in part about toxic masculinity and sexual misconduct and negative aspects, but also positive aspects: the culture of excellence and of discipline, the culture that goes with a chain of command and with deployability in very challenging circumstances, the culture of working with our friends and allies overseas and the culture of serving the Canadian public, as the Canadian Forces did so admirably during the COVID-19 pandemic.
Can you unpack the idea of total culture change as you see it, focusing, presumably, on the negative elements, but also on how that intersects with positive aspects of culture that are present in the Canadian Forces today and should be preserved?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, thank you very much for that question.
When it comes to a total culture change, I've received this question quite often. For me it's about making sure we eliminate the poisonous pieces that we are currently dealing with in the Canadian Armed Forces, with all types of misconduct.
The culture change we're talking about is very simple. It's to allow everybody who joins to reach their full potential in the Canadian Armed Forces in an inclusive environment. When there is any type of wrongdoing, they can come forward, things can change and they will be heard. More importantly, they can have a just outcome. That's what we have been focusing on.
We know we have a lot more work to do. We have women who felt that they could not come forward. That is probably the most disturbing piece to come out of this. We need to do more on this.
I look forward to hearing much advice. We will be taking greater action on this so that we can create the culture change that is needed.
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Minister, in the 30 seconds I have left, what would you say to a young woman today who was contemplating a career in the Canadian Forces?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
My message to them is that they, and every other Canadian citizen, have a right to serve in the Canadian Armed Forces, a right to wear that uniform and to come in and be treated with dignity and respect. That's exactly what we're doing.
More importantly, we're creating that pipeline so they have an opportunity to reach the highest ranks. Madam Chair, we've had women in the Canadian Armed Forces for some time. They never reached the highest levels. This is one of the things we wanted to change, and we have, making sure we create a pipeline from the bottom up—which, by the way, cannot be reversed regardless of governments or ministers that come into these positions. We know that by having them at the table we can actually start creating that culture change directly.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr. Minister, you just told us what message you would send to a young woman who wants to enlist in the Forces. The message is all well and good, but you are telling her in the same breath that the day she is sexually harassed by the highest-ranking officer in the army, the Chief of the Defence Staff, and she complains to the ombudsman, he will not be able to do anything. And you, as the Minister, can do nothing but tell the ombudsman to look after his own affairs and contact the appropriate authorities.
Do you think the young woman will be reassured?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, I think the member is missing one point in this.
The ombudsman's role is to investigate—
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Mr. Minister, I do not want you to give me a lecture on how things work. I am asking you if you think that the lady—
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
You don't.
Do you think the lady will be reassured?
It is yes or no.
Liberal
Liberal
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
Mr. Fortin, we have to stop this. If we're going to ask the question—