National Defence Committee on April 6th, 2021

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, I could answer the question in terms of the actions that we had taken. We took the information very seriously. We informed the Privy Council Office of what had transpired. They contacted the former ombudsman, and my former chief of staff informed the Prime Minister's Office of the actions that we were taking.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

So, you did not review General Vance's PCO file history. Was there a reason for that?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, I'm not sure what the question is. PCO file.... I'm genuinely asking. I'm having a hard time understanding what the question is when it comes to “PCO file”.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

The PCO file, the personnel file on General Vance.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, again, that would be interference. I don't get involved with the personnel files that the Privy Council holds on Governor in Council appointments.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Minister, you ordered an investigation into racist incidents in the Canadian Armed Forces, yes or no?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I have ordered an independent panel to look at the issue of systemic racism, gender bias and misconduct in general, yes.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

So, you initiated that investigation, but—

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

That's not—

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

—you did not ensure that an investigation was started on the allegations against General Vance.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, that's not an investigation, and not even a review of an individual. That is to look at a wider problem, which is our responsibility. I'm not trying to look at the actions of one person. Those are the things that the chief of the defence staff would do, or the deputy minister would do, based on the responsibility they have and the mechanisms that they have.

I would not—I hope no politician would ever—make ministerial inquiries or launch investigations on individuals.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you.

Minister, when, where and in what capacity have you served with General Vance outside Afghanistan?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I've only served under his command in Afghanistan.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

If today the same allegation about General Vance were brought to you, through the ombudsman about a GIC appointment, what is now the policy of dealing with it?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

This is one thing that we're going to be reviewing, to see whether we have the right policies in place. In terms of GICs, this is something that the Privy Council will have to take a look at. Our responsibility is making sure, when it comes to a GIC appointment, again, that we put it in the hands of independent public service officials so the information can be looked at.

We are going to be looking at independence inside the Canadian Armed Forces. However, it's not the responsibility of ministers to look at GICs; it's the responsibility of the Privy Council Office.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Robillard, you have the floor.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister Sajjan, what are the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces doing to ensure better support for survivors who come forward?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you very much for the question.

I'll actually allow Dr. Preston to answer that question, but we wanted to make sure, from day one, that when somebody finally comes forward.... Imagine what they have gone through. We wanted to make sure that they not only have the appropriate emotional support, but they also have the proper advice as to what they can do.

For example, one of the things we're currently looking at is how, when somebody has any type of misconduct that has come up, they can have one place to go so they can get the appropriate support, they can have the appropriate legal advice and direction, and they will be supported all the way through the process.

Dr. Preston, can you add some more details to that, please?

[Dr. Denise Preston]

Yes. Thank you.

As I mentioned earlier, there are a range of supports that are available to members, either through health services or through the sexual misconduct response centre. Members can also be referred to specialists in the community. The other service that is available is that we currently have a contribution program where we fund nine sexual assault centres that are in close proximity to bases across the country. That provides opportunities for people to seek support outside of the military if they would rather speak to non-military service providers.

We are looking at a number of service enhancements right now—for example, the response and support coordination program that I spoke about earlier, which provides ongoing support from beginning to end of a person's journey. It is currently offered as a centralized model, so we offer it from Ottawa, but we will fly staff out to provide accompaniment, for example. We are in the process of expanding that program to have regional centres so that there's more proximity to supports.

We're also looking at a number of other service enhancements—for example, the provision of independent legal advice to members, as well as looking at peer support programming, both online and in-person peer support.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Dr. Preston, would you say that survivors don't come forward because they're afraid of retaliation or because they're afraid that their case won't be taken seriously?

[Dr. Denise Preston]

What I would say is that, for any survivor, whether they're a survivor in the military or outside of the military, it's a very difficult decision to come forward. In fact, outside the military, in the civilian world, only about 5% of sexual assaults are actually officially reported to the police.

Within the military, there are actually higher reporting rates. It's around 20% to 25% reporting. However, I should note that 40% of those reports are made by third parties, which is actually disempowering to victims.

There is a whole host of reasons why people don't come forward. These are tremendously embarrassing and very sensitive, very personal situations. There is a lot of self-blame that people have to get over before they even choose to come forward. Then, if they actually overcome that, what you say is true. There are concerns around not being believed, about retaliation and about career impacts. There is a whole host of fears, and it's not just the fear of retaliation. People actually experience retaliation, so it's grounded in reality.

There are concerns around a lack of faith in the system—that processes are not timely and that members do not get the information they need in order to fully participate in the process—and also a dissatisfaction with the outcomes of processes, whether it's the disposition that's arrived at or the length of time it took to get there.

There is a whole range of reasons people are reluctant to come forward.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you.

Rear-Admiral Bernatchez, clearly survivors who attempt to report sexual misconduct have issues, especially when the officers involved are high-ranking officers in the Canadian Armed Forces.

In your opinion, how could this issue be resolved so that survivors no longer have to deal with it?

[Rear-Admiral Geneviève Bernatchez, Judge Advocate General, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence]

I want to thank the member for his question.

It should be noted that the military justice system plays an important role in addressing sexual misconduct issues in the Canadian Armed Forces. The system works in partnership with the other systems in place in the Canadian Armed Forces to provide education and to prevent sexual misconduct.

I want to point out that, when an incident of sexual misconduct occurs, the victim or survivor has the option of reporting the incident to the civilian police system or to the Canadian Armed Forces police system, meaning the Canadian Forces National Investigation Service.

Clearly, as Dr. Preston said, victims and survivors face a number of challenges and roadblocks. As we move forward, we need to make sure that we listen to them, give them more support and respect them. We need to restore their confidence not only in the military justice system, but also in the civilian criminal justice system and in the chain of command.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you.