Evidence of meeting #23 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:05 p.m.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thank you very much.
Chair, how much time do I have remaining?
12:05 p.m.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
My next question is for you, Lieutenant-General Eyre.
I've learned from women who have served in the forces that they often need different sizes of equipment and clothing that are not normally carried in stock on bases. How do we ensure that women get the protective equipment they need, such as bulletproof vests and other clothing and equipment, without it costing the unit or at the base level having to pay for it out of their own budgets? Could we have a separate fund, if you will, or a separate budget that is used exclusively for this purpose so that we can help fully integrate women into the armed forces?
April 6th, 2021 / 12:05 p.m.
Lieutenant-General Wayne D. Eyre Acting Chief of the Defence Staff, Department of National Defence
I thank the member for his excellent question.
As the army commander, this was something I was seized with. We began an initiative called the soldier operational clothing and equipment modernization. We wanted to modernize, for fit and function, the next-to-body equipment, the load carriage, and the body armour that our soldiers are dressed in. Using anthropometric data, or body scans, we ensure that we can fit the entire size and shape of the force so that they are better protected, the clothing they wear is better fitting, and they feel prouder about serving in the military.
One of the biggest complaints I would receive from young soldiers was that they did not have faith that their body armour would actually protect them. That's what this initiative was aimed at. It was to improve the confidence that each and every member had in their equipment to be able to do the job.
12:05 p.m.
Liberal
12:05 p.m.
Liberal
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr. Sajjan, at the time, you refused to meet with Mr. Walbourne, who wanted to share information about allegations of a sexual nature.
If today, in 2021, Mr. Lick were to contact you to share information of the same nature, would you still refuse to meet with him?
12:05 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
First of all, on the assertion that the member has made, I did not refuse to meet with the former ombudsman. In fact, I actually had a formal meeting with our entire staff. He asked to meet with me privately, and I met with him privately. We had a discussion, in fact, about the current investigation that was currently going on in his office. At the end, he raised those concerns. He did not ask me for advice. However, I gave the advice, and the advice was to make sure that we handled this information properly. That's why it was followed up immediately.
If anybody had provided any of this type of information, I would always follow the proper procedure. That's exactly what I did in the past, and that's exactly what I'll do in the future.
12:10 p.m.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Thank you, but you refused to meet with Mr. Walbourne on at least a dozen occasions, according to what he told us.
Is that incorrect?
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
What you're referring to are regular meetings. In fact, we used to have regular meetings, and we did have meetings. It's not refusing to meet. Sometimes when it comes to scheduling issues.... In fact, I took every opportunity I could to actually meet with him. We met quite regularly to discuss the work that the ombudsman’s office was doing, to talk about some of the things early on when we were developing the defence policy, looking at some of those things.
I did not ever refuse to meet with the ombudsman.
12:10 p.m.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
So Mr. Walbourne is making things up when he says that you refused to meet with him after the meeting regarding General Vance.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Could you repeat the question, please? After the meeting...?
12:10 p.m.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Mr. Walbourne told the committee that you refused to meet with him a dozen times after he tried to talk to you about the General Vance case. Now you're saying that this isn't true and that you meet with the ombudsman very often, whether it be Mr. Walbourne or Mr. Lick at this point.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
After that meeting, the former ombudsman gave his letter of intent to resign. He was on leave, I believe, at that time. However, when it came to the information that the former ombudsman provided, we took many opportunities.... Well, the Privy Council did, including my former chief of staff, who actually emailed him directly to ask for the information.
No, I did not refuse to meet with the former ombudsman.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I guess my concern still remains that we had someone come forward with a substantiated allegation of sexual misconduct. We know that, in effective policies dealing with sexual misconduct and sexual assault, victims who come forward have to be believed until there's some reason not to believe them. In this case, we had a credible allegation for which the military ombudsman had evidence that the minister—you, Minister—refused to look at.
You've invited.... You said a few minutes ago you've invited personal questions about this. I want to ask about your relationship with General Vance. How long have you known General Vance, and what were the circumstances under which you first met?
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
I'm sorry, but what was the first question? Perhaps you could repeat it.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
How long have you known General Vance, and what were the circumstances under which you met? That's the question I would like you to respond to, Minister.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
There was no earlier question. The question I'm asking you now is this: How long have you known General Vance, and what were the circumstances—
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
No. Madam Chair, I think it's unfair to make an assertion and then try to ask a question. I think that's extremely unfair for a member to do something like this.
I will answer the member's question very directly, Madam Chair.
I was not friends with General Vance, and I'm not friends with General Vance. Does that answer your question very directly?
12:10 p.m.
NDP
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
No, I do not have a personal relationship with General Vance.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
General Vance had no role in your appointment to positions in Afghanistan.
