National Defence Committee on April 6th, 2021

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Minister, you stated you were involved with—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Please let the minister.... He's here for three hours. Let him finish, and then we'll carry on. I'll give you a bit of extra time at the end.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

As I stated before, it is important that the process be followed so that an independent investigation can occur. Again, no politician should ever interfere with an investigation. No politician should ever have the power to launch an investigation on somebody or stop an investigation on somebody.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Were you satisfied, in May 2019, when you were at the cabinet meeting at which the performance management program for General Vance was discussed, that his performance had no sexual misconduct in it?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, I'm not part of a management committee. Could she rephrase the question?

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

I was asking about the performance management review program. As minister for General Vance, you are involved in that process. Is that correct?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, when it comes to the people who work for me, whether it's the deputy minister, the chief of CSE or the chief of the defence staff, it's usually sometime in late fall that we get a call for about 15 minutes by the Clerk to discuss how things are going in the department with their folks.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Were you satisfied that there was no question that General Vance's performance was beyond reproach and he was not involved in any allegations of sexual misconduct of any kind?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, our responsibility in this case, if any information is ever brought forward, is to immediately take it to the appropriate officials so that action can be taken. That's exactly what took place here.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Minister, performance is about your judgment—your ministerial accountability and your judgment. Were you satisfied that General Vance's performance, his behaviour, was beyond reproach?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, when we discussed the work that.... The questions I answer when the Clerk asks about the people.... It's a list of questions on the work they do. Obviously I can't get into that, for privacy reasons. I don't get involved with the performance pay, as the member is asserting here. I have never been involved in deciding their performance pay.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Not the amount of pay, but whether or not their performance was worthy of being rewarded and being continued—that is your responsibility. Were you absolutely satisfied with General Vance's performance?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, that's not how those questions work.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Were you part of the cabinet meeting when the order in council that went to the Governor General to increase his salary was discussed?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, I am not involved with the decision on salary increase.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

What about a recommendation on a salary increase, as signed by cabinet to the Governor General, the OIC in May 2019?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, I have not been asked about a performance pay increase by the former chief of the defence staff.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

It was an order in council cabinet meeting. You were not part of that, even though you are the minister responsible for the CDS government in council.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, as I've said many times, I am not involved with performance pay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much. I let it go a little longer.

We move on to Mr. Baker, please.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Before I ask my questions—and I really want to focus on how we address the issues of sexual harassment and sexual assault in the military, so that's where my questions are—I just wanted to say something in response to something I heard from a member who was speaking previously. The member said the minister should have ordered an investigation.

It's important to remember, and we've heard this at committee over and over, that all a minister can do is refer to authorities, who can then undertake an investigation so that it protects the victim, follows due process and is done professionally, in an unbiased way. Obviously, if the minister ordered or directed an investigation, that would be interference.

Now, what I wanted to do was ask about military sexual trauma, and I want to direct my question to Dr. Preston at first.

Dr. Preston, to your knowledge, what support is offered for those in the Canadian Armed Forces with military sexual trauma?

[Dr. Denise Preston, Executive Director, Sexual Misconduct Response Centre, Department of National Defence]

A range of supports are offered to members who suffer from military sexual trauma. One large service provider would be Canadian Forces health services. They have a range of mental health professionals who would provide whatever sort of supports a person might need within their own unit. If the needs of the member were actually beyond what they were able to provide, members would be referred to external specialized service providers.

We also provide a range of supports through the sexual misconduct response centre. That includes a 24-7 confidential call line as well as a response and support coordination program. If members choose to participate in that program, it provides ongoing support from the time they disclose an incident until such time as they don't need services any longer. That can include information, referrals to other services, accompaniment to appointments, advocacy, assistance with workplace accommodations and a range of services.

There are also other, non-specialized supports. The chaplains are a resource that members will frequently go to for confidential support. The chaplains would then typically refer them to either SMRC or health services to get more specialized support.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thanks, Dr. Preston.

I'd ask you to be brief in responding to these next ones, because I do have a couple more questions, if I can get them in.

Is military sexual trauma peer support offered? Should military sexual trauma be treated as an operational stress injury?

[Dr. Denise Preston]

With respect to the first question, peer support is not currently offered. However, there is work under way to get an online peer support platform established. As well, we have produced a joint proposal with VAC to develop both an online and in-person support program for members and veterans.

To the second part of your question, yes, I agree that military sexual trauma should be considered an OSI.