Evidence of meeting #23 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Benzen Conservative Calgary Heritage, AB
You had it 2019, in 2018 and so on.
Now, that pay raise came up, and it just didn't.... There was no need to discuss that.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
As I stated, no, I did not discuss pay. I do not discuss pay. I'm not involved with the decisions on pay.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Benzen Conservative Calgary Heritage, AB
You keep saying that you're not involved in a review, but—
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
No, I said I'm not involved with the decisions on the review for pay. I'm not.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Benzen Conservative Calgary Heritage, AB
Right. But the people who are making the decision about the pay are reviewing everything, including your conversations with the Clerk of the Privy Council about how he's doing on his job and how he's doing and all that. In a sense, you kind of are involved in the review process, aren't you?
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
No. What you're stating here is that I'm involved with a pay review and that—
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
I'm saying there is a review that's conducted every late fall. They have a review, but during that time I don't talk about pay. I'm not involved with the decisions on pay.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Benzen Conservative Calgary Heritage, AB
Fair enough, but that review that you just had with them becomes part of the review of how to proceed if you're going to give a raise, so indirectly, you are involved in a review.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
No. Madam Chair, he said that if I'm going to give a raise as stated.... No, I'm not involved with the pay.
As Ms. Sherman has also stated directly and explained to this committee, “ministers do not set the pay.”
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Benzen Conservative Calgary Heritage, AB
I understand that, but here's what the problem is. Canadians all across this country.... I just talked to my neighbours and I said, “Your superior is going to have some input on your pay review; he's going to have some input on your job review ever year. Do you believe that the Minister of Defence doesn't have an input on the chief of the defence staff?” And they go, “He has to have an input. He's his boss.”
Every Canadian across the land, from coast to coast to coast, knows that the boss has an input, and you keep saying over and over again that you don't. Canadians aren't buying this. Can you explain to them why, as his boss, you're not involved in this?
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Given how you set things up in terms of trying to paint a picture before trying to say that we're going.... I don't know how you set the discussion up with your neighbours. I'm here to tell you what the actual process is. More importantly—
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Ms. Sherman came and explained the full process to this committee. She explained the process that they have. During this time, yes, there is a conversation that occurs, I think in the late fall, which I'm not disputing. I'm also stating that I don't get involved with pay. She also stated, “ministers do not set the pay.”
How you set the conversation up with Canadians, for whatever purpose, that's up to you, but I'm here to—
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
April 6th, 2021 / 12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Thank you to all of our witnesses for being here once again.
We've had some very fulsome testimony before the committee. We've reached some conclusions with a greater level of intensity than before. I think one of those conclusions is that there is ministerial accountability. Exempt political staff are not accountable to the Canadian public, but ministers are.
I think there is also a very strong view that has emerged, which was supported by Prime Minister Harper's former chief of staff, that it is not appropriate for elected officials to either launch or otherwise become involved in or call for an investigation. I think this is very important for the committee to take note of.
Minister, I wanted to take advantage of the fact that we have you and the senior-most leadership team of the Canadian Armed Forces with us once again and to ask you one more time to take a closer look at the question of culture change. You said in your opening remarks several weeks ago that we need “a complete and total culture change” and that “the time for patience is over.” In the course of testimony, the committee has received an indication that there is a bit of a tiering within the Canadian Forces, that the openness towards change might be more represented in junior ranks or in junior levels of the Canadian Forces and that there's a challenge in the more senior ranks. I'm quoting one of our witnesses here with respect to brass reluctance to change.
Could you and your colleagues tell the committee what we should focus on in terms of taking the issue of systemic change within the Canadian Forces forward in a tangible way under the mandate that we have left in front of us? What kinds of things could we zoom in on when it comes to culture? There are positive aspects to culture, and there are also negative aspects to culture. How do we crack this nut? How do we really achieve the change that women and men in the Canadian Forces, and aspirants who would want to serve in the forces in the future, deserve?
I'll let you lead off, and then I'll have some follow-up questions for your team as well.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Thank you very much for that really good question.
When it comes to culture change, this is something we've been focused on for some time. I've said this publicly. Culture change is about making sure that we look after our people from the ground up. It's making sure that the people we recruit are looked after all the way through and making sure we have an inclusive environment so that everybody, regardless of who they are—gender, sexual orientation, religion, colour, it does not matter—when they decide to join the Canadian Armed Forces, they have a fair and equal opportunity to succeed, and for us to value their skill set.
Obviously, we have had resistance to change, but this is something that we work quite aggressively to deal with. We also need to look at making sure that as survivors come forward, they have the support. Ultimately, we're trying to prevent any of these types of misconduct issues from happening. That's going to happen through culture change. The discussions that we're having, we've been having for some time. It's something that the independent panel is working on. The culture change is going to happen. First of all, it is the senior ranks fully engaged in working towards that culture change, making sure that at the lower levels, as leadership is being selected, things are done properly there.
Ultimately, it is going to be all our responsibility to get this done.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Thank you very much, Minister.
Deputy Minister Thomas, is there a way structurally and systemically within the Canadian Forces to increase levers for allyship for male serving officers and NCOs to be rewarded for the kind of behaviour that really leads to culture change in a more systematic way?
12:35 p.m.
Jody Thomas Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
I'm not sure if there is a way to reward people, but I think there is a way of educating people and building allyship. I think there is a misperception that the only problem is sexual assault. Sexual assault is a criminal act. It's very serious and it has to be taken seriously, but I think for many women in the Canadian Armed Forces and the Department of National Defence it's the daily effort to be heard and respected that is the problem. It's the sense of entitlement of some senior people in the organization that it's their institution, not everyone's institution. It's the difference between being integrated and being inclusive.
I think there's a fundamental lack of belief in the rights of equality, equity and inclusion, and there's a misperception that if you haven't assaulted somebody, you have done nothing wrong.
It starts with changing that perception and holding people to account so that there is room for every voice and people are more equal and they are treated more equitably in the department.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Deputy Minister, could allyship and gender equality leadership be reflected in a performance evaluation in the Canadian Forces?
12:35 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
Absolutely, they could be in the Canadian Armed Forces, although that's more General Eyre's to speak to than mine. Certainly, for senior leadership in the Department of National Defence, it absolutely could be and will be.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
