Evidence of meeting #23 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Denise Preston  Executive Director, Sexual Misconduct Response Centre, Department of National Defence
Wayne D. Eyre  Acting Chief of the Defence Staff, Department of National Defence
Geneviève Bernatchez  Judge Advocate General, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence
Jody Thomas  Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
Gregory Lick  Ombudsman, Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces
Michael Wernick  As an Individual

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Good morning and welcome, everyone.

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 23 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on National Defence.

This is a very, let's say, unusual circumstance, something that we don't see very often. That's why late yesterday evening we sent you an email outlining what was given to the clerk yesterday so that everyone would be informed. We also promised that we would begin the meeting with an open dialogue about what the committee wants to do. I need to seek the guidance of the committee because this is an unusual circumstance.

I would like to open the floor. You've all read the email so you know what has been suggested. I would like to open the floor to anyone who would have comments they would like to bring forward, or options or suggestions. I'm in your hands. If anyone would like to begin, please put your hand up. We'll call on whoever puts their hand up first.

Mr. Bezan, go ahead.

April 6th, 2021 / 11:05 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Well, I'm assuming that you're going to be inviting Minister Sajjan to provide testimony in place of Zita Astravas, which to me is completely ignoring the order that came from the House. Parliament demanded that Zita Astravas be the one to appear. I think it's contemptuous that she isn't and that the actions by the government are just playing into the larger realm that this is a cover-up.

I would suggest, Madam Chair, that we do hear from the minister, that he stay for the entire time that was allotted for Zita Astravas and that questions that we had prepared for her we'll be putting to the minister.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Thank you very much, Mr. Bezan.

Ms. Vandenbeld.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

Thank you very much.

I would also of course agree that we hear from the minister and the officials he has with him.

As has been discussed at length in the House, and also in the letter that the minister sent to the committee by way of explanation, political staff are not people who are decision-makers. They are accountable to the political member—in this case, the minister—and therefore the minister...being here, he is the one who is accountable to Parliament and to this committee, and I'm sure that the committee members will be able to ask him all the questions that they would have asked Ms. Astravas.

Therefore, I would suggest that we hear from the minister and the officials he has with him.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Okay. Thank you very much.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you have the floor.

11:05 a.m.

Bloc

Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

However, I believe that Mr. Garrison raised his hand first. I wouldn't mind speaking now if that's what Mr. Garrison wants. That said, I'd still like to stick to the order of raised hands.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Mr. Garrison, would you like to go first?

11:05 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Thanks, Madam Chair.

I'm having a bit of a problem with the screen freezing this morning, so I apologize for that.

I'm happy to have the minister before us today on ministerial responsibility, because that's what we are actually studying here. I'm not happy that the government has chosen to ignore an order from the House, but I do think it gives us a opportunity to talk about the concept of ministerial responsibility with the minister. I'm quite happy to do so today.

I should note that the reason we were calling upon staff members and staff from the Privy Council Office is in fact that the minister pointed us to them in his testimony and said that it had nothing to do with him and we had to talk to these people. In fact, it's the minister who originally suggested that we should talk to staff people, who he is now saying should not be called before the committee.

I look forward to talking to him about the concept of ministerial responsibility and who actually is responsible for the fact that the minister and the Prime Minister failed to act to remove a chief of the defence staff when there was a substantiated complaint of sexual misconduct against him.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Thank you, Mr. Garrison.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you have the floor.

11:05 a.m.

Bloc

Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I agree with my Conservative and NDP colleagues.

I must say that I'm disappointed. I don't know whether I'm surprised, but I'm certainly disappointed. We don't often complain about meeting with the minister in the committee. I'm not complaining about that. It would be good if he were here more often, as is the case in most committees.

However, my concern is that the committee's wishes aren't being respected and that witnesses who were scheduled to appear are being excluded. I'm even wondering whether this is a way to prevent these people from speaking. Why shouldn't these people be allowed to speak? I'm told that they aren't the ones making the decisions and bearing the ultimate responsibility. However, they do know things. They know what's happening and what decisions are being made.

In the current situation, where we can see that the minister didn't take the proper steps, it seems appropriate to receive comments and information from the staff.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Okay. Thank you.

Is there anyone else?

Mr. Bezan, go ahead.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

I would just say, Madam Chair, that this doesn't absolve Zita Astravas from appearing at committee. There's still the order from the House, and I expect it to be respected.

With that, let's get on with addressing ministerial responsibility with the minister himself.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

That seems to be the will of the committee: that we invite the witnesses who were outlined in the email that was sent to you last evening.

I'm going to suspend for about five minutes to allow them to get on and get their sound checks done, and then we'll reconvene.

We are suspended.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

I call this meeting back to order.

To begin, I would like to invite Minister Sajjan to give his opening remarks and to introduce his team to the members of the committee this morning.

It's over to you, Minister Sajjan.

11:20 a.m.

Vancouver South B.C.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan LiberalMinister of National Defence

Madam Chair, thank you again for this opportunity to come speak with the committee once again.

I have with me my deputy minister, the acting chief of the defence staff, and the judge advocate general to answer questions.

I first want to clarify something, Madam Chair. I'm here because on our side of the House we have a deep respect for the traditions of Parliament. One of those traditions is the principle of ministerial accountability.

Our government believes that ministers of the cabinet are accountable to the House of Commons for the decisions of the government and for the actions of their political staff. We have been collaborative with members of Parliament and we have been accountable. It is our responsibility, and we have gladly fulfilled that responsibility.

I'm here today because, as a member of cabinet, I speak on behalf of the government and for those who work in it. Let me be clear: Unelected political staff members are accountable to members of the cabinet, and cabinet is accountable to Parliament.

The Conservatives believed in this core principle more than a decade ago, when they were in power under Prime Minister Harper. In fact, it was a Conservative foreign affairs minister, John Baird, who spoke at committee about why the Harper government was refusing to allow its staff members to testify at committee.

Mr. Baird said:

If you have a problem with my office, you come after me. You can't haul people before this committee in a hostile, partisan interrogation—people who can't fight back for themselves. If you have a problem with the government, it is ministers in our system.

They are accountable.

Or perhaps the opposition would like to hear from former prime minister Harper himself:

Mr. Speaker, our precedents and practices are very clear. It is ministers and the ministry at large who are responsible to the House and to its committees, not their staff members. The staff members are responsible to the ministers and the members for whom they work.

Prime Minister Harper and his government instructed their staff not to appear. Instead, cabinet ministers went in their place. Unfortunately, the Conservatives under Erin O'Toole—who, himself, is involved in this study, lest we forget—have changed their minds on the importance of this fundamental principle of ministerial accountability. What was so important to them when they were in government has been thrown out the window now that they are in opposition. That is regrettable and dangerous, because Canadians need to know that they can trust that the very traditions of their Parliament will not be abandoned simply out of political expediency by those seeking power.

Madam Chair, the argument put forward by Mr. Baird and Mr. Harper was correct. It was the right thing to do then, and it is the right thing to do now.

Now to the very important issue at hand.

Let's start by stating my position in the clearest possible terms. I do not and will not accept any form of sexual misconduct in the Canadian Armed Forces and the Department of National Defence from anyone, regardless of rank or position. I am committed to ensuring that affected persons have access to a range of supports and are treated fairly and compassionately. I firmly believe in the independence of investigations. These have been my guiding principles on this issue since I became Minister of National Defence.

We must take care of our people and provide them with a workplace free from harassment and discrimination. It is written into our defence policy. It is written into my mandate letter. It is also my personal belief system.

Sexual misconduct is harmful beyond measure. Our government has worked hard by responding to retired Justice Deschamps' report. We put measures in place focused on understanding the issue, preventing harm from occurring, addressing incidents when they happen and providing support to those affected.

We created the sexual misconduct response centre, completely independent from the military chain of command. We launched new mandatory training and education. We partnered with Statistics Canada to conduct surveys so we could better understand the scope of the problem. We reviewed 179 old cases that had been categorized as unfounded. We created new specialized teams within our military police and our prosecution service to address sexual misconduct. We sought out experts' external advice, and we implemented new programs and policies. Last year, we released a culture change strategy. All of this work was essential and foundational.

It is clear that Operation Honour, as we know it, has run its course. It has become clear that it has limitations. It is extremely clear that we have a lot more work to do. We will learn from what has and hasn't worked, and develop a deliberate plan to go forward.

We need to make it easy and accessible for anyone at any level to report an incident, and they need to have confidence in the reporting mechanisms. That is why we will be developing an independent reporting structure to look at all allegations. As the Prime Minister and I have stated, all options are on the table. We will continue to be guided by fairness and respect for the rule of law. [Technical difficulty—Editor] be upheld, because no one should ever have undue influence on an investigation. That jeopardizes the ability to achieve a just outcome.

Madam Chair, there can be no denying it. Sexual misconduct is a serious, systemic problem in the Canadian Armed Forces. We must take bold action to establish a culture where sexual misconduct is never minimized, ignored or excused. For far too long, people in the Canadian Armed Forces have been negatively affected by a culture that is influenced by outdated conceptions of what it means to be a warrior, a culture shaped by hypermasculinity—one that rewards assertiveness, aggression and competitiveness; one that sustains stereotypical gender roles and excludes people who do not fit the mould. This ideal permeates military cultures around the world. It is evident in accounts of hazing and initiations, and we see it in the continued occurrences of sexual misconduct. It was not okay in the past, and it's not okay now.

We know we must change our culture so that we can prevent sexual misconduct from happening in the first place. We must align all behaviours and attitudes with our core value: respect and dignity for all persons. Change will not happen on its own. It requires a persistent, methodical and holistic approach. People all across the organization must be invested in it.

Over the past two months, Canadian Armed Forces members and civilians across the defence team have been having important conversations about the issues that persist in our organizations. These conversations have been motivated and informed by those who have come forward and shared their experiences, but the responsibility to address sexual misconduct does not rest on the shoulders of those who have been affected. It rests on all of us.

It rests on leaders across the defence team to establish a culture where everyone is treated with dignity and respect. It rests on commanding officers to protect their people from retaliation and reprisal, and it rests on every person in our organization to intervene as bystanders and support one another. We must continue building trust in each other and in our organizations—trust that must be earned, not taken for granted.

Enough with the politics. We have to focus on the survivors and those who are coming forward. Now we must take action and change the culture of the Canadian Armed Forces.

Madam Chair, thank you for this opportunity to speak to you once again.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Thank you very much, Minister.

I will now open the floor for questions.

Up first is Mr. Bezan, please.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister, just so you know, this isn't about politics. This is about making sure we get to the bottom of why your so-called claim of zero tolerance for sexual misconduct did not extend to General Vance and why you allowed him to walk away three years ago.

Madam Chair, we are supposed to hear from Zita Astravas today. I'm hoping the minister has talked to her and has the questions we had prepared for her, so that we can get more of the information that he actually suggested we pursue.

Minister, on what date did Zita Astravas learn of the allegations against General Vance?

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Madam Chair, the very day the former ombudsman informed me, I immediately spoke with my chief of staff back at the office.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Thank you.

That would have been March 1, 2018.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

The very same day.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Who in the Prime Minister’s Office did Zita Astravas contact about the allegations against General Vance?

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

As I stated before, my chief of staff at that time informed the Privy Council Office immediately and informed the Prime Minister’s Office, as well.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Who in the Prime Minister's Office did she contact regarding the allegations against General Vance?

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

I believe it was Elder.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Elder Marques? Is there anyone else you're aware of, Minister?