National Defence Committee on April 6th, 2021

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

But the Prime Minister has stated in the House that he was aware of these allegations in 2018, so who would have raised those from the PCO to the Prime Minister or from the Prime Minister's staff with the Prime Minister?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Once we raised it with the Privy Council Office and with the Prime Minister's Office, I'm not sure who, when it comes to raising the issue. Our focus was that information was provided to us. We wanted to make sure there was an independent look at the information, and that's exactly what we did, because in this case here, when it comes to a GIC appointment, we wanted to make sure that there was complete independence, especially independence from any type of political interference.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

All right. Thank you very much.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Minister—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

We'll go on to Mr. Bagnell, please.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for being here, Minister, and thank you to all the other witnesses as well.

One of the members has mentioned that there are proven serious allegations against a senior member, but it's inappropriate to prejudge. Investigations are under way, and they will decide what are proven allegations.

Minister, I was delighted that you spent most of your time talking about the changes that need to be made, and my questions after this round will totally be on that. The hundreds of people who are affected, especially women who want protection, really would want committee members to be working on that. That's the biggest outcome of this committee. That's a responsibility for all of us. We really have to improve the system, and hopefully we'll be talking about that. We'll certainly be asking a lot of questions about that. We have to move forward. You've been a champion of that, and we're delighted that you outlined the flexibility to move forward and make those changes to protect people.

I just want to make sure that on this round.... Is there anything else you wanted to say about the reason you're appearing here on behalf of your former chief of staff, Zita, today?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, as you stated, it's important for ministers to speak on behalf of their staff. Ministers are accountable to Parliament when it comes to their ministries. That's exactly what we're doing.

In this case here, Madam Chair, what I am focused on, and what our entire defence team is focused on, is making sure we look at the current situation and find ways to create the culture change that everybody on this committee and all of us want. I look forward to the recommendations from this committee and all members of Parliament, because ultimately this is what.... When we formed government, we wanted to make sure we created an inclusive environment for all Canadians, not just in the Canadian Armed Forces but all across Canada. This is something we took very seriously.

We took Madame Deschamps' report very seriously before we came into government. We're working aggressively to make the changes. We know there's a lot more work to do, but we want to continue doing that work. More importantly, we need to be able to hear from the experts. We need to hear from the survivors. We need to hear from the women of the Canadian Armed Forces, both serving and retired. That's what's going to allow us to create that culture change. We want to move as aggressively as possible, but ultimately our objective is always going to be zero tolerance.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you, Minister.

I know you're appearing today on behalf of your former chief of staff, Zita Astravas. Do you think she would have had anything more to add, other than what has already come up at the committee?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, I've come to this committee a number of times, as well as to other committees. I have provided all the answers for all the questions. More importantly, not only do I speak for my former chief of staff, but there's nothing further she could add.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you, Minister.

There are some senior members under investigation. The investigations will run their course. Of course, there will be no political interference and those will be taken care of. The main thing is to get on with helping the members and changing the systems of the many, many other complaints that are out there.

We've heard from you, the former ombudsman, the former chief of staff to former PM Stephen Harper, PCO and numerous other witnesses. Do you think there's anything else this committee can contribute in pursuing this line of questioning and focusing on incidents that are currently being investigated by the appropriate authorities?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, I've answered all the questions. With these lines of questions, regardless of how many times I'm asked, I can give answers only based on the information and the facts of what took place.

What I would really like to focus on is the women and the culture change that we all agree on, making sure we get the expert advice, making sure we create the right plan, and more importantly, making sure that whatever ideas we come up with actually hit the mark so we can create the culture change. That's exactly what I think not only all of us agree on, but more importantly all our Canadian Armed Forces members deserve.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you.

We've heard some very good testimony from experts and victims. Certainly that will be an important part of our report, but there's certainly more that we can hear. I'm looking forward to that. I'm delighted that you're open to those changes. Obviously, when there are hundreds of people, if not over a thousand, whom this has impacted in the past, we really need to make major changes. I'm glad you're open to that.

It's never easy to make changes, so it won't be easy to make these difficult changes, in my opinion, but I am certainly committed to.... I know that all the other members of the committee—you heard what they said—really want to make these changes as well. They really want to help particularly the women, but not only the women, who have been victims of this type of activity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you have the floor.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister Sajjan, today we were surprised to have you here. Usually, when we meet with a minister, it's a nice surprise. This time, I'm not sure that's the case. You're here because you decided to go against the committee's wishes to call in staff from your office who may have something valuable to say to the committee.

Are you being obstructive?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

As the minister responsible for national defence, I speak on behalf of my staff. I'm here to answer any questions you might have.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

You seem to be saying that, by doing this, you're protecting these people. Don't you think that, on the contrary, rather than protecting these people, you're protecting yourself?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I have always taken the opportunity to come before this committee at the earliest opportunity to answer any questions. I've always been extremely open. In fact, with a number of the opposition members, I'm even open to answering their questions on a personal basis. I've been extremely open from day one, when I became minister. I actually wrote a letter to all members of Parliament saying, please, if you have any ideas on where we can improve defence, then I'm open to it. Let's take the politics out of defence.

In this case, I'm here to speak on behalf of my staff. Staff should not be coming here. They're not accountable to Parliament for the department; ministers are. I'm here to answer your questions.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Are you concerned about how the staff may respond to the committee's questions?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

We are here to answer all of your questions. I speak on behalf of my staff and my former chief of staff, Zita Astravas.

I just want to say how important the work that committees do is. I actually welcome having these discussions. With the work we have in front of us, no one person is going to have all the answers. I not only welcome answering all your questions; I look forward to your recommendations as well.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Minister Sajjan, you aren't answering my question. I asked whether you were concerned about what your staff may say to the committee.

Do you have anything to hide?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

No.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

There's an answer. I hope that it's the truth.

I'm trying to understand why you're preventing staff from appearing. Will this become a new norm?

In many cases, when we ask ministers to appear before committees, we'd like to meet with them for two hours. However, they disappear after the first hour and leave their staff with us. They let their staff testify.

I'd like to understand why it's the opposite right now.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Our political staff do not represent the department. My departmental staff, in terms of who you see here.... You're talking about our deputy ministers and our Canadian Armed Forces members. Here we have the acting chief of the defence staff. They are here. Political staff who work for ministers' offices are not accountable to Parliament on behalf of the department; ministers are. This is what's been done in previous governments, and this is the practice that we have now.

As a minister, I am responsible to Parliament. I'm here to answer your questions.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

I gather that, when it suits you, you let the officials speak, and when it doesn't suit you, you don't let them speak.

You suggested to the committee on March 12 that Mr. Walbourne hadn't done his job and that he could have given his information to people other than you.

Yet when we met with Mr. Lick, the current ombudsman—I don't remember whether it was in this committee or the Standing Committee on the Status of Women—he said that, if he had needed to act, he would have taken exactly the same steps as Mr. Walbourne.

In your opinion, do the former ombudsman and new ombudsman misunderstand the nature of their work, whereas you're correct?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, I would like to answer the first assertion that the member made. No, my staff has never come to committee to testify. I have always spoken on behalf of my department. The departmental staff who are here before you do come with me: the deputy minister, the judge advocate general, sometimes the vice chief of the defence staff and, in this case, the acting chief of the defence staff.

To answer the other question that the member posed, it is important when information is brought forward on anybody, especially when it comes to a Governor in Council appointment, to make sure we follow the proper process without any type of political interference and to make sure that it is absolutely independent, if an investigation is to start. That's exactly what took place and it was done immediately, Madam Chair.

The following day, the Privy Council Office followed up with Mr. Walbourne. I'm happy to repeat this over and over again. It is so important that, any time any information comes up on anybody, rank or position regardless, we take concrete action.