National Defence Committee on April 6th, 2021

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Yes, I agree completely that we need to expand what we do in terms of women's health.

As we conduct the listening phase of our approach, we are hearing over and over that we need to increase the spectrum of care, of the medical support that we provide to our women in uniform. We need to address such things as bereavement leave for miscarriages. We have to ensure that our medical practitioners have the skills and knowledge to be able to better care for our women in uniform.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

I want, if I may, to come back to a topic I didn't have a chance to speak with you about in my last series of questions, which is the different sizes of equipment and clothing that are not normally carried in stock at bases.

I know, Lieutenant-General, you spoke to that issue, but we got cut off. What I want to get back to is the fact that in many cases, at least currently, when different equipment is required, payment for that comes out of a base budget or local budget. Forgive me—I don't know all the structures, but what I understand is that it comes out of a base budget.

That cost poses a challenge to the integration, because decisions have to be made to spend that money at the local level, and that's what I've heard from people who've served in the Canadian Armed Forces.

I guess my question to you is whether you support this and what actions you would take to make sure doing this is no longer an impediment. In other words, would there be a separate budget set aside to ensure that this equipment could be procured without interfering with the local operating budgets of the base?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

First of all, the money part of the equation belongs to the deputy minister, but what I'll say is that the purchase of uniforms and equipment comes out of a national budget for national procurement, about which there is some stress, but we are continually making a case to ensure that the proper amounts go into uniforms and equipment.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I would just point out that I have heard about how that is an important element with regard to how we can do more to integrate women effectively into the armed forces.

Chair, how much time do I have?

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

You don't have any. Sorry, Mr. Baker.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

We go now to Mr. Benzen.

Go ahead, please.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, after your meeting with Gary Walbourne on March 1, 2018, he made over a dozen requests to have a meeting with you and they were all rejected.

Can you explain why none of those meetings happened and why the requests were rejected?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, it's important to note that I didn't reject the meetings. It's also important to note that the former ombudsman had given his letter of intent to resign and was on medical leave during that time. No, I did not refuse to meet with the ombudsman. I've met regularly with the ombudsman at any opportunity I have had to talk about a number of issues.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Did you meet with him, talk with him or have any communication with him after March 1, 2018?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

No, I did not.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

There were no emails? There was nothing, no communication?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

There was none directly by me; however, my former chief of staff did reach out to the former ombudsman regarding the allegations on a couple of occasions.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

She reached out and asked if there was any progress, anything happening, what you could do to help him? Was it that kind of thing?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

It was to provide the information he had spoken to me about to the Privy Council Office so that the appropriate action could be taken.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Well, he said he never asked you to forward it to anybody.

He had come to you and asked you to consider this is as something he would like you to respond on to him personally, you to him, with some kind of clear direction on how to proceed.

He said he was shocked when the Privy Council called him to ask about it; he hadn't expected you to tell anybody. Initially he just wanted you to think about how this very explosive situation could be dealt with in a way that would protect the person bringing it forward. He was surprised when he got this call, and then you personally never talked to him again about it, and that was sort of contradicting.... Or it wasn't contradicting, but it was just not what he was expecting.

Were you expecting to have another conversation with him about this?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

First of all, there is no confidentiality when you bring up information regarding the chief of the defence staff. I think it would be completely inappropriate for any minister, and it would have been for me at that time, to keep a secret while allowing some process to occur. I think it's very important in our government, and will be for any future government, that if any information is ever brought up about a GIC it is immediately taken to independent public officials so that the appropriate action can be taken. That's exactly what took place.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

It's interesting that you say that, because what ultimately happened here was that this stayed a secret. This secret stayed a secret. It never got investigated, because the person coming forward needed to understand that when they brought it forward there would have to be some kind of protection. Because of the chain of command and everything that goes on and all the reprisals and all the stuff that happens in this toxic environment, it wasn't safe to bring this information forward. The information was there. There was some kind of evidence. It was in the pocket of Mr. Walbourne. You never saw that. I understand that and I respect that.

There was a sense that we were going to have to find a way to bring this secret out, and that's what you were put in the position to do. You, as the minister, had to figure out how to get this secret out while preserving and protecting that person and that integrity, and also making sure that our whole armed forces and the integrity of that were protected.

What did you do to endeavour to make that happen?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

That's a great question and that's exactly what I've been trying to answer here. Rather than having a minister, a politician, try to manage something like this, we made sure in this case that the Privy Council Office, the people in charge of Governor in Council appointments, were given it so they could look at exactly what the process would be to manage it and also to work with the ombudsman to try to figure out how to give confidence to the person and to work with them. I believe, based on the testimony that has been given, that has already been explained.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Robillard, you have the floor.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister Sajjan, you've said several times that all options are on the table to resolve the current issues affecting the Canadian Armed Forces.

What does this mean exactly?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, when I say all the options are on the table, we need to look very wide and deep. The first aspect of that, which is the most troubling piece, is that a member did not feel confident they could come forward, because of the chain of command. We need to look at the independence and at giving members confidence about being able to come forward. We need to look at that inside the Canadian Armed Forces, and we need to look at an outside system as well. This systemic issue is far greater than the Canadian Armed Forces. There's that aspect. As the acting CDS just mentioned, we are currently looking at an inspector general position with regard to this, but how would it be structured?

I don't want to just make an announcement on something to say we have it done. I want to see what is actually going to drive that culture change. For example, based on what we have been hearing from our survivors and people who have served in the Canadian Armed Forces and who are currently serving, we need to take a look at where culture change occurs. It's at the lower levels. How do we make sure that at the lowest levels we pick the right leaders? Do we need to take a look at—and I mean this as a rhetorical question—360 interviews? We need to look at not just somebody's performance but also at whether this person is a leader and could command. We need to look at what type of person this is and make sure that, when somebody is going to be going into unit command or commanding a ship or even a squadron, they should get that command.

Three-sixty interviews, unit assessments and, more importantly, the right type of training need to be done so that from the time somebody joins, regardless of viewpoints somebody might have, the expectation is there that everybody knows clearly what needs to be done. More importantly, if something does occur, where can someone go to get the right support for themselves but also to have justice done?

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Dr. Preston, what do you think culture change implies in the Canadian Armed Forces?

[Dr. Denise Preston]

Madam Chair, culture change is a very broad concept. At a very broad level, it implies a change in attitudes, values and beliefs of individual members. It also, to bring it down to an individual level, involves changes in behaviour in terms of how people treat each other at the individual level. But it's also about policies and processes and programs that are available within an organization. The reality is that you're never going to change every single individual member of the Canadian Armed Forces to have consistently the same values, attitudes and beliefs. What you need to do is create an environment that makes the type of harmful behaviour that they act out upon each other completely unacceptable. If a person chooses not to control their behaviour, the environment has to control it for them and has to have swift consequences to it. There needs to be a top-to-bottom approach that looks at individuals and at culture and values and attitudes, but you also need to look at it from beginning to end. You need to look at who is coming in, how they are being indoctrinated, what is happening to them during the course of their career, how leadership is developed, how leaders are leading, and what is being promoted or rewarded. When things happen, when things do go wrong—because they will go wrong—you need to have the appropriate policies and processes in place so that people have a place to come forward to, responses are timely, people are treated compassionately, things are effectively resolved, and, in the end, hopefully, you retain people and they continue to be productive members of the armed forces. To me, that's what culture change looks like.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you have the floor.