National Defence Committee on April 6th, 2021

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister Sajjan, you've spoken at length today about ministerial responsibility. You referred to it as the reason why your staff wouldn't be allowed to speak to this committee. Yet you've denied any responsibility for the failure to investigate General Vance and for the fact that he remained in office for years, despite the allegations against him.

Let's face it, under your government, Operation Honour was a failure. The Admiral McDonald scandal also took place under your government, as did the scandal involving the person responsible for human resources in the Canadian Armed Forces.

Given all these accumulating factors, do you think that this ministerial responsibility, theoretically, should apply to you?

Do you accept responsibility for all these situations?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Let me make it very clear. From the day I became Minister of National Defence, my number one priority has always been to focus on our people and to make sure we have an inclusive environment regardless of the colour of someone's skin or someone's sexual orientation or gender. I joined in 1989, when women were being allowed into combat. I've seen some of the challenges they have faced directly. That's why, when we started the consultations for a defence policy, we made it very clear that we wanted to be focused on our people. That's exactly what we did. The changes we have made are part of that progress. We knew we couldn't get everything right. We knew at that time, and we discussed it many years back, that there were survivors who had not come forward. We said that we wanted them to come forward and that they would be looked after.

As Dr. Preston has stated, we want to make sure we empower them. That's why we passed Bill C-77, which the previous government let die on the order paper. That's why we put resources and made policy changes to make sure—

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Minister Sajjan.

However, I asked you whether you would accept responsibility for your government's failures.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

I'm afraid your time is up anyway.

We go now to Mr. Garrison.

Go ahead, please.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I want to pick up where Mr. Barsalou-Duval left off and that is on the failure of Operation Honour.

Mr. Minister, it's clear that Operation Honour failed in its goals of rooting out sexual misconduct in the Canadian military and provoking that change of culture that was needed. We talked, at the beginning, about ministerial responsibility.

Who is responsible for that failure of Operation Honour? Is it the former chief of the defence staff, General Vance, or is it you, as the minister, who should take responsibility under the concept of ministerial responsibility?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Absolutely, when it comes to what happens in the department, even the challenges we've faced, this is something I take very seriously. When it comes to the challenges that we have...Operation Honour became something about a name and about one individual, but what we need to do is to make this about an entire team effort, and that's exactly what we're doing. When situations like this occur, it's not about running away; it's actually about moving forward and making the changes that are necessary, and that's exactly what we're doing.

The challenges we face today because of the high profile of the allegations that have come forward.... We know that people have been suffering, and what we have been committed to from day one is making sure that we create an inclusive environment. I've spoken to many of you, including the member, Madam Chair, and we're not going to stop.

One thing, yes, is that I am accountable for what's happening, but I'm going to take account for making sure that we maintain that progress and keep what's worked with Operation Honour but also look at how we can accelerate the change that's necessary. I heard some very good examples, and what we now need to do is to figure out exactly how those recommendations are going to work, and, more importantly, how we're going to be able to measure the results and not just announce that it's over. We need to be able to be flexible enough so that whatever we put in place can outlast a government, can outlast ministers so that change cannot regress, and can always continue, because society is going to evolve and the Canadian Armed Forces need to continue to evolve with it.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Minister, it's your position, then, that you wouldn't have done anything differently, in hindsight now, from what you did, you wouldn't have done anything other than turning this over to the Privy Council Office. If that is the case, it seems to me that under ministerial responsibility, you're laying this at the feet of the Prime Minister. The chief of the defence staff remained in office for three years after a substantiated allegation of sexual misconduct was raised, and no investigation was done. If it was not you, under ministerial responsibility, then wasn't it the Prime Minister who was responsible for that? Doesn't that affect how confident women serving in the Canadian Forces can be about their ability to serve equally?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, with all due respect to the member, as I stated, the Prime Minister was not aware. It's about no politician, whether that's the Prime Minister or a minister, ever getting involved in an investigation. Madam Chair, our Prime Minister was the one who named the first cabinet that was 50% women, who actually put a focus on things—

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

—but who took no action.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, can I answer the question, please?

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

You've answered the question by—

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I'm trying to answer the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Answer the question, please.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

The question is not about the Prime Minister's feminism.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, he asked me about the Prime Minister, and I'm trying to answer the question.

When it comes to the resources, the Prime Minister supported the Canadian Armed Forces getting $63 billion in additional money, whereas the member's party right now are going to be voting on whether or not you should have a Canadian Armed Forces. To be honest—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much. Time is up.

Mr. Bezan, go ahead, please.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank my colleague Mr. Garrison for that line of questioning.

I can tell you, Minister, that it doesn't seem as though you're at all apologetic for what has transpired. Especially since 2018, this matter has lain at your feet, and General Eyre talked about how there's been a loss of trust in the leadership of the Canadian Armed Forces, and that includes in you as minister.

Minister Sajjan, do you have any regret that you left General Vance in charge of Operation Honour?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, I understand where the member is going. Every time there is any type of misconduct by a member, it is extremely painful. I wish we could immediately do a fast-forward and get the just outcome that they deserve. One thing I have done right from the beginning is to make sure that regardless of the case, we have given the right resources to our folks, and that's exactly what we did.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Do you have any regret, Minister, about leaving CDS General Vance in charge of Operation Honour?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, in hindsight, if I had known what I know, things obviously would be very different. When it comes to Operation—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

You knew in 2018 that there was an allegation. You knew there was an allegation against General Vance and you still left him in charge of Operation Honour.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, if the member wants to go there, you knew about something in 2015. Of course, when it comes to it, all I can do is follow the proper process—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

So—

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

The member knows there was an investigation in 2015. I take responsibility for what—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

So instead you just change the channel now.