National Defence Committee on April 6th, 2021

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Since it has come up in today's testimony, Minister, I would like to thank you for your military service to this country and for the many years that you served honourably. Thank you.

I would actually like to address my questions to General Eyre. I welcome General Eyre and note that this is the first time you are appearing at this committee as the acting chief of the defence staff. I welcome you here in your new role.

I would like to refer back to some of the things, General Eyre, that you said when you appeared before the status of women committee last month. It was a very important statement that you made about Operation Honour.

We all know that when we are trying to find solutions and ways to change institutional culture, we can do things with very good intentions that can sometimes have impacts that were not intended. I think you referred to the duty to report as one of those things. One of the words you used.... I've heard responses from some of the survivors that this was actually something very welcome.

You indicated that Operation Honour had “culminated”. I wonder if you could elaborate a little on what you meant by that, and also on what comes next. What do we do now to make sure we learn the lessons, but also to make sure we don't repeat any of the errors we've made in the past?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Madam Chair, thank you for the question. This one could take some time in unpacking.

The first thing I have to say is that we don't have all of the answers. I think having that realization up front will help shape our response here.

The framework we have adopted is one of listen, learn and act: listen to our grassroots level, listen to victims, listen to outside experts, listen to internal experts, listen to academics and hear what they have to say about where we need to go. We need to learn. We need to do a stock-taking of all of the reports that have been done. We need to do a stock-taking of Operation Honour to see what has worked and what hasn't worked.

Then we need to act. In acting, we need to gather all of the various suggestions, reconcile the ideas that are out there and put them into a deliberate plan, because culture change doesn't happen overnight. That deliberate plan also has to have some very quick hits.

In terms of Operation Honour and the term “culmination”, culmination is a very specific military term for an operation and means that an operation can go no further, that it has run out of resources, that it has run out of steam. It needs to transition to something else. It's very clear that Operation Honour has to transition to a deliberate plan that will address the shortfalls that our people are identifying.

As we go forward, we need to view culture change from a victim's perspective. Yes, we can talk about the advances we've made over the last 15 or 20 years, but for a victim, that may not matter. Changing our frame of reference, I think, is very important as well.

You talked about the duty to report. The more I hear, the more I am convinced that we need to change the “duty to report” to a “duty to respond”. It's important that we expect our military members to report wrongdoing when they see it, but we also have to give the victims agency. We have to give the victims a say in how their case is followed through. Changing the duty to report to the duty to respond I think is going to be a very key aspect of that.

The ideas keep coming in. We need to reconcile those, but we're well on our way.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much, General.

Could you also talk a bit—and I would also like to hear from the deputy minister on this—about how we build trust within the defence team? We have seen that trust has been broken, despite all the best efforts. At this point, it's very important to rebuild trust. How do we do that? Could I have a short answer from both the deputy minister and the acting chief?

Thank you.

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Trust takes years to build, but can be destroyed in one incident. That's one of my biggest concerns now. Trust in senior leadership is challenged at this point.

To re-establish that trust and re-establish trust in the reporting system for misconduct, if that means bringing in an external independent reporting body, well, so be it, if that's what it's going to take for our people to have trust in the system. That trust in the chain of command is going to be built back up, step by step, incrementally, because there's not just one trust switch that we can click.

[Jody Thomas]

Madam Chair, to follow on General Eyre's comments, I think what we need to do, as General Eyre said, is to start with some listening and not ordering. You can't order trust to be built and you can't order culture change. It doesn't come from NDHQ. It has to be built out in the bases and wings from the ground up.

I think we have to show evidence of change and that we have heard what the problems are, and I think move swiftly to change the reporting structure, so that complaints can be made outside the chain of command without diminishing the value of the chain of command. We do have to remember that it's critical when the Canadian Armed Forces are out doing things on behalf of Canadians and, for the National Defence employees who are not CAF members but support the Canadian Armed Forces every single day, include them in the plans. We need to understand and accept that civilian members are both victims of and perpetrators of this misbehaviour. Therefore, whatever we do going forward has to be inclusive of the entire defence team.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

All right. Thank you very much.

I'm going to suspend for five minutes for a health break. I don't know about the rest of you, but we've been at this for two hours. We'll suspend for five minutes, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

I call this meeting back to order.

We're back with round number four and we're starting off with Madam Alleslev, please.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Minister, in 2015, the mandate letter stated that as Minister of National Defence you were to “[w]ork with senior leaders of the Canadian Armed Forces to establish and maintain a workplace free from harassment and discrimination”. Is that correct?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Yes.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Does it include overseeing and ensuring necessary policy and process changes are in place to achieve that?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Yes.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Therefore, does it also include the accountability of individuals to ensure their behaviour is a reflection of those policies and leading by example?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

We have to make sure that people are held accountable regardless of rank or position, yes.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Perfect.

Then, Janine Sherman, in her testimony, stated, “The defence minister is consulted in the annual performance management program in respect to GIC appointees within his portfolio.”

You were made aware of the allegations of sexual misconduct against General Vance in 2018. In the fall of 2018, you have said that you spoke about General Vance's performance with the Clerk of the Privy Council. We know that cabinet signed the salary increase in May of 2019, so in your judgment, you believed that the CDS was deserving of the performance increase. Is that correct?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, I disagree with the assertion that the member is making, and also, Ms. Sherman stated that ministers do not set pay.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

I didn't say “pay”. I said that you commented, you influenced, you were consulted on performance that might be deserving of whatever reward would come.

My question, Minister, is, did you tell the Clerk of the Privy Council in the fall of 2018 that Vance had performed in accordance with the standards and therefore was deserving of continuing in the position and whatever rewards may come?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, no, I did not say those words as the member is asserting here. I answer the questions that the Clerk has every single year in the late fall when they talk about the chief of the defence staff or, more importantly, it's actually the deputy minister and the chief of the security establishment.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Minister, what did you say with respect to his performance? Was it below? Was it satisfactory? Was it outstanding? Was it exceptional? Did you highlight concerns about General Vance's conduct and performance?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, I can tell you that I answered the questions, but obviously for privacy reasons I cannot get into the details of that conversation.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Minister, you spoke at General Vance's change of command ceremony in January of this year, and you thanked him for providing his help in developing a path to dignity and respect through the Canadian Armed Forces and through its sexual misconduct strategy, and you praised him for building a safer environment. Is that correct?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, at any change of command parade, as the Minister of National Defence I will be speaking about any member who is involved with the change of command.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Minister, that sounds like you were praising him for his conduct, and that you were a hundred per cent satisfied that his example was the example that the military should take in terms of his conduct in January of this year.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

No, Madam Chair. That is not the assertion.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

So the members of the Canadian Armed Forces, hearing those words praising him, should not have believed that he was a role model that they should emulate, from your comments?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, as a former member of the Canadian Armed Forces, she, and I believe you, Madam Chair, know that when you're at the change of command you speak about the member. That's exactly what I did, and as the Minister of National Defence it's my responsibility to talk about the outgoing and the incoming.