Evidence of meeting #23 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.
A video is available from Parliament.
April 6th, 2021 / 3:05 p.m.
Liberal
3:05 p.m.
Conservative
Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Mr. Wernick, in your opinion, then, who has overall responsibility to ensure that the position of the chief of the defence staff is filled by someone whose behaviour is beyond reproach and doesn't include sexual misconduct or harassment?
3:05 p.m.
As an Individual
The appointment is the recommendation of the Minister of Defence to the Prime Minister, and the Prime Minister would agree or not to the recommended appointment. Minister Kenney recommended the appointment to Prime Minister Harper, and then subsequent issues about his promotion and tenure would have been decisions recommended by Minister Sajjan to Prime Minister Trudeau.
3:05 p.m.
Conservative
Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
So the Minister of National Defence is responsible to ensure a CDS whose behaviour is representative of the values of the Canadian Forces, etc.
3:05 p.m.
As an Individual
Every minister is responsible for the portfolios for which they're answerable to Parliament.
3:05 p.m.
Conservative
Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
We know from Minister Sajjan's testimony that you and he had a call in the fall time frame of 2018 to discuss General Vance's performance and, I would assume, behaviour and conduct as part of that.
Can you confirm that you did in fact speak with Minister Sajjan regarding his performance management program?
3:05 p.m.
As an Individual
This was the cycle of the 2017-18 performance year. Performance works on an April 1 to March 31 year, give or take a bit of leeway at either end of the year.
As I think Ms. Sherman tried to explain, we always seek the input of ministers to provide a recommended rating. It's true that ministers don't set the pay, but they do provide input on the rating. The whole scheme is on the Internet, and you can see the criteria and the rankings and so on.
3:10 p.m.
Conservative
Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
You would have spoken to him about that.
3:10 p.m.
As an Individual
Yes. I spoke to Minister Sajjan on two occasions, in May and in June—I think around May 18 and June 25—about issues in the armed forces, how long General Vance's tenure should be, when there should be a change of command, and issues about the turnover and the senior ranks. I can go into more depth about what those conversations were—
3:10 p.m.
Conservative
3:10 p.m.
As an Individual
I want to make it clear that this was in May and June of 2018.
3:10 p.m.
Conservative
Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
At that time, had you closed the file on the sexual misconduct allegations?
3:10 p.m.
As an Individual
No, the file was open, in the sense that had any new information come in after mid-March, we would have taken it into account. In neither conversation that I had with Minister Sajjan do I recall raising conduct issues, nor did he raise conduct issues with us. Conversations were about other matters, and I'm happy to go into that.
3:10 p.m.
Conservative
Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
You remained confident, then, that these allegations were unfounded, despite there having been an investigation.
3:10 p.m.
As an Individual
There had not been an investigation. The only person who knew about the seriousness of the allegations at the time was Mr. Walbourne.
3:10 p.m.
Conservative
Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
When you look at Governor in Council appointments, do they do security clearance checks, background checks? Does there need to be a complaint to investigate the conduct and behaviour of a Governor in Council appointment?
3:10 p.m.
Conservative
Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
You can do it only with a complaint. You can't look at an individual's conduct without a complaint.
3:10 p.m.
As an Individual
It would depend on where the information came in. In the case of Rideau Hall, it came in through a CBC story to my successor. The security and background checks are done on appointment. They were done in 2015 by the Harper government. Then he was appointed, and he's there at the pleasure of the government until something new comes along in terms of new information.
3:10 p.m.
Conservative
Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
The ombudsman wouldn't carry the same weight as CBC.
3:10 p.m.
As an Individual
The ombudsman did not share any information with the Privy Council Office.
3:10 p.m.
Conservative
Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
He advised you there was something worthy of concern.
3:10 p.m.
As an Individual
And he took the stand that it was none of PCO's business.
