National Defence Committee on April 4th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That's good; then we don't have to ask her again.

Colleagues, the chair is in the same dilemma, which is we have 25 minutes' worth of questions to be done in 20 minutes, so if our five-minute round becomes four minutes—four, four, one, one, four and four—maybe we'll get through it.

Mr. Dowdall, go ahead for four minutes, please.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

I want to take an opportunity to thank our presenters today and get back to my colleague's question. I don't know if you were on the first part, but Base Borden is within my riding and I was the mayor there, so we worked often together with the base commander on social issues that would involve the spouse. Like I said, we implemented a bus system that ran to the city, because a lot of them could only afford one car perhaps. For getting jobs, I heard earlier that it can be difficult to get employment in the area. When you get back to the housing, and I said this in the last one on the cost of the housing, I think we're way behind already and we have these concerns. I said this on the last one.

What concrete things should we do now that are actually going to make change that is attainable without great debate, whether it's politically or whatever it might be, to hopefully change some of these things that are going on there and help the people who are frustrated and who are part of the organization now, and even veterans before, a lot of whom are facing some tough times out there. What can we do right now that could be the low-hanging fruit so that we can get ahead of the game?

[Dr. Madeleine Nicole Maillette]

Can I speak for the soldiers and what they've asked for?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

By all means.

[Dr. Madeleine Nicole Maillette]

What the soldiers who spoke to me asked for is a review and reinstating of the post living differential, that would help right now, and 200-plus soldiers were saying that.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Did you have anything to add, Ms. Lane?

[Andrea Lane]

The difficulty with the post living differential is that the base rate is Ottawa. I think any of us who are experienced with the Ottawa real estate market know that it has experienced a tremendous growth in the past couple of years, so everything being tied to living in Ottawa doesn't actually address the cost of living in Ottawa. I have heard that people are reluctant to take postings to the HQs and other establishments in Ottawa, because if you're moving from Wainwright, Petawawa or Oromocto, for example, the money you're getting from selling your house there does not come close to getting you a house in Ottawa.

As to what the solution is, it's complicated. One thing I think is important to note is that, as many people who are losing on the real estate market, they all know colleagues and friends who are winning. That disparity between whether your family's move resulted in a financial loss and hearing about somebody whose family's move resulted in their earning $300,000 that you didn't, that actually sets up people for a tremendous amount of grievance within the service, so it's a retention issue and a morale issue as well. I'm afraid I don't have a solution for that.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

I'll ask one other question.

When we talk about recruiting people, do you think we're doing enough, perhaps educationally, with parents and communities to understand what it means to be part of the CAF? Are we starting early enough, like in the schools, and really showcasing the different aspects and the different careers that can come out of it?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Be very brief in your answer.

[Andrea Lane]

In the U.K. they do have more interaction with the schools, but I should note that across the country you will get very many visceral reactions, either positive or negative, to the idea that the military will be involved in your schools. You should probably recognize that there's no national answer. The uptake for that and the desire to have that sort of reach by the military varies quite dramatically region to region and is potentially a national unity issue.

Yes, there are other countries that do it. I'm not sure I would recommend it as a Canadian solution particularly.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Dowdall.

Mr. Fisher, go ahead for four minutes, please.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to both of our witnesses for being here today.

Ms. Lane, you said numerous times that this is complex and complicated. I certainly appreciate that. Your comment about asking 15 people 15 different exit questions and getting 15 different answers speaks volumes to the complexity in all of this.

Ms. Lane, I'd like to talk about universality of service or, more specifically, maybe the modernization of universality of service. Do our allies in NATO have a more stringent, more rigid universality of service? Is that something that has positively impacted retention and recruitment in other countries?

[Andrea Lane]

I'm not familiar enough with NATO countries more broadly. I can speak to a couple of countries that have invested in this differently in the context of their military service.

For example, Israel has a program in which they have required military service. Because they are responsible for accepting basically all citizens, they have established military service for people who are neurodivergent, for example, people on the autistic spectrum, and have found a way to have meaningful involvement by neurodivergent people within their military.

In the United States there is more concern with injured veterans, particularly from the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts. In the same way that Canada has a few ways that people who have been injured can continue to serve, I think that's really the best way of thinking about how we can expand those exemptions, particularly when we start looking at recruiting people in non-traditional occupations like cyber-operator. Is there a way of thinking about how we connect promotion to supervising, and could we perhaps look at disentangling those so people could maintain their one job without having to necessarily advance in a way that is traditionally viewed as “military”, by, for example, taking on supervisory work, and instead could kind of stay with their preferred cyber job at their computer or whatever?

I'm sorry that I'm simplifying that a little bit, but there certainly are other countries that have expanded the definition of what it means to be able to “serve”. Oftentimes, that is rooted in more of a national service or semi-conscripted version of what military service is.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Certainly, with a hundred-some types of jobs and a willingness or a need for us to have more diverse Canadians and perhaps members of the disability community participating in our military, I think it's something that.... Would you suggest that this is possibly a way forward?

[Andrea Lane]

I think so, and again I think my colleague Dr. Okros noted that, if you have people who can't, for example, deploy, then you are sort of taking billets from people who can deploy who might need, for family reasons, to have a rotation at home so that they're not at sea, for example.

All of these things are good ideas in principle. I hate to sound like a broken record, but the sort of second and third order affects what it means to have a population within the CAF who can live only in Toronto, for example, and can't be posted to Wainwright or Oromocto. I hate to pick on Wainwright, but it's top of mind. There are all sorts of other kind of follow-on effects that need to be examined before any of these is taken in. For example, I think beta-testing having people with various cognitive or physical disabilities joining the CAF as a test program could be a way forward potentially.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm sorry to say that Mr. Fisher's time is up. He is down to one second. Those were great questions too.

Madame Normandin will demonstrate to all of you how you can ask a question in one minute and elicit amazing information.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

As we know, many military personnel who leave the forces end up in the public service or in the paramilitary sector.

Does this have an impact on these environments, given the culture in the forces, where the working environment can be toxic?

Does this culture transfer to other settings afterwards?

[Dr. Madeleine Nicole Maillette]

Is your question for me?

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Yes.

[Dr. Madeleine Nicole Maillette]

I'm not allowed to talk about my work or say where I work and what I do.

However, I can say that this culture developed in the forces does transfer to other settings. Positions that put people in a certain position of authority attract retired officers. So the military culture is starting to spread in the public service, and we're starting to see aspects of that, including the code of silence.

We see other things, but I can't discuss them because I'm not allowed to.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Madame Normandin, you demonstrated my point.

Madam Mathyssen, you have one minute. It's a challenge.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I don't know if I'm going to meet it.

Ms. Lane, you were talking about those countries that have required service. I think about the idea that the military is one long career and only one. I often heard that a lot of companies were trying to reach out in terms of the military to show the progression of what service could mean. They show what is being trained and how that leads into a different career and different stages.

In terms of that private sector grouping, is that something the Canadian government should focus more on?

[Andrea Lane]

In terms of doing more to support veterans transitions, I think there are quite a few initiatives already. Particularly in the public service where I work now, there is a veterans hiring priority. I think perhaps more could be done to make people within the private service more aware of the skills that people in the CAF can bring.

Honestly, I think that former service people are the best spokespeople themselves. Often you'll have those individual networks that have been created by people who have retired from the CAF, where so-and-so got hired and you join them. It's not as if people who have retired from the CAF need help themselves in developing those skills so much as civilians perhaps need to be more familiar with what those skills are.

More broadly, it's that Canadians don't know that much about their military in general.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you. Unfortunately, that is very true.

Madam Findlay, you have four minutes, please.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

I'm not sure which one of you can answer this: What is the educational level of the average recruit? Do you know?