Evidence of meeting #15 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was family.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Unfortunately, we're going to have to leave that question there. I'm sure you'll work it back in, Professor Okros.
Madam Mathyssen, you have a minute and a half, please.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
There used to be bigger recruitment budgets within the armed forces. You were speaking about going to where people are, younger people in terms of social media, but it used to be that the armed forces would actually send recruiters into rural, remote communities, northern communities, indigenous communities. That doesn't seem to happen as much. A return to that kind of recruitment in terms of first nations communities, would that be something that the armed forces should look at?
4:25 p.m.
Professor, Department of Defence Studies, Royal Military College, As an Individual
My quick comment would be yes. As you've identified, the issue again is back to resource decisions that had to be taken at certain stages. There are significant challenges with the distribution of the force structure. How many people do you want to have that are actually deploying and doing operations versus now many people do you want to have in the recruiting and training system, etc.?
Those are constant decisions that the senior leadership needs to make, which is why I made my comment that either we need increased predictability so they can allocate the resources in the right spaces, or we need to fund flexibility because they have not had flexibility. That's been a detriment to recruiting processes.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
We're going to have to leave it there.
Mr. Dowdall, you have four minutes, please. Welcome to the committee.
April 4th, 2022 / 4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Terry Dowdall Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON
Thank you very much.
I just want to take this opportunity to thank our speakers for taking time out of their schedules. I was fortunate enough, in my prior life before being an MP, to be the mayor of Essa Township, which has the largest training base on it, which is Base Borden. A lot of the military go through there all the time.
I can tell you, one of the comments that I heard earlier, which was important, was about the lifestyle. Especially now, it's changed over the years. They used to live on the base and now they live in the community. It's not so much the same as it was years ago, so they actually increased the wages at one point in time so they could buy houses in our town. Now the problem is that the average home is $800,000. I'm just wondering if people are looking into that when they're deciding to join the military.
It's certainly like you said with the spouse, the importance of getting involved in sports or teaching our kids hockey, all of the events. They are part of our community now. It's really changed. I'm just wondering if that is part of the reason we're maybe not getting more applications.
4:30 p.m.
Doctoral Student in International Affairs at the Norman Paterson School of International Affairs, Carleton University, As an Individual
I was just going to make a quick comment on the salary issue and the housing issue that would lead to it. Currently there is just one page on the CAF website for salaries, stating that your starting salary would be anywhere from around at least $33,000 to $64,000, and that's all the information that's provided. Yes, I definitely think that more information on salary needs to be provided so that applicants feel comfortable that they could afford a house in the future.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Terry Dowdall Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON
Thank you for that.
I have one more comment. I was fortunate enough as well, in the prior sitting, to actually be on this committee. I was part of the study that we did into sexual misconduct in the military. I don't know if you had an opportunity to witness or to see any of that. I can tell you, as an MP in a riding with a base, the amount of filibustering by the government during that period of time, when we had people there that had testimony, and to not come to a conclusion was certainly disappointing. I just want to simply.... Do you think that committee helped in any way to increase the numbers who might want to join today?
4:30 p.m.
Doctoral Student in International Affairs at the Norman Paterson School of International Affairs, Carleton University, As an Individual
I believe that committee showed that members of Parliament do take this issue seriously, even if some of the members who were witnessing were not taking it as seriously or didn't provide as much accountability as hoped. Personally, watching it, it did not increase my comfort with the sexual harassment that was occurring in the CAF. No accountability was really taken at all, actually, over multiple meetings.
Perhaps this could be a recommendation for government: to write policies for when this happens on civilian oversight and what parliamentarians should do. Maybe that would remove some of the political influence from that and make it more of a standard formal policy.
4:30 p.m.
Professor, Department of Defence Studies, Royal Military College, As an Individual
My quick comment would be that those who watch committee hearings on a regular basis are quite capable of watching political theatre and would recognize all of the different parties and how they contributed to it.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Terry Dowdall Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON
Quickly, do you think the lack of infrastructure that we have would perhaps be another thought process for why people don't want to get involved? I used to get people picketing my offices, for instance, because they were against the purchase of some equipment for the military. That's changed, certainly, since the invasion. It seems to be going a different way.
Do you think that might hinder people who learn something and then go somewhere else after?
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Unfortunately, we'll have to leave the response to that question, which is an important question, to another time.
Our final four minutes go to Ms. O'Connell.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, both, for being here.
Dr. Okros, you talked about an example out of the U.K. that was doing it well, in terms of the family unit and supports.
Is there another jurisdiction, or maybe it is the U.K., that you think is doing it well and that Canada should look to, overall, on recruitment and retention issues? The kind of ultra masculine approach to the armed forces is not unique to Canada and sexual misconduct [Technical difficulty—Editor ]. You worked in the U.S. a bit on the “don't ask, don't tell” policy. This is not unique. It is certainly a highly macho kind of industry, so how do you break down not only the stereotypes but also the reality of what's actually happening and the systemic issues?
Are there jurisdictions that kind of acknowledge the damage that this has done and have made significant progress, or have done really strategic things that either of you could point to? This is going to take a while to really flow through the system, but is there a jurisdiction that we could look to that you think has done a lot of positives in this regard?
4:35 p.m.
Professor, Department of Defence Studies, Royal Military College, As an Individual
I have two quick comments, if I could. First, on retention, we mentioned the issue of housing. I would look to the Australians and their policies on housing. That's one place I'd look at.
Second, on the sexual harassment issue, certainly, the Five Eyes are all looking at the same issues at the same time. The general consensus from the other countries is that Canada is leading. Canada has been more willing to be open about it, to challenge it and to question it.
With the strategies that have been put forward over the last year—some that Paxton has spoken about—such as new policy announcements on the importance of inclusion and the importance of character, and the areas that senior leaders are talking about in terms of where the CAF is going to go, the Canadian Armed Forces are leading the Five Eyes. They're all watching to see how these things work.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
4:35 p.m.
Doctoral Student in International Affairs at the Norman Paterson School of International Affairs, Carleton University, As an Individual
No, I think that's it.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON
Fair enough.
I wanted to touch on something in terms of recruitment as well, in terms of cultural experiences. I've said this before at this committee, so my colleagues may have already heard this. I was in municipal politics before. We had a very similar [Technical difficulty—Editor ] firefighters, new police officers that matched the diversity of our community, because many new Canadians, certainly their parents, at least, saw some of these institutions as not good places to be and not institutions they thought their children should not be in. I could imagine in some cultures, and some countries, Canadians that are now [Technical difficulty—Editor ] comes with significant challenges.
Is there anything being done in jurisdictions to kind of break down that misperception about the value of joining CAF in this example?
4:35 p.m.
Professor, Department of Defence Studies, Royal Military College, As an Individual
Just briefly, it's recognized and acknowledged, and there are efforts, but that's why I made my comment about it really requiring niche communications into specific communities. There are different reasons why members of some communities are reluctant to join the military.
Again, we're back to how this requires time, effort, money and, most importantly, people. That's why not as much of it has been done as should have been.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Ms. Paxton, would you like to just finish us off with a brief statement?
4:35 p.m.
Doctoral Student in International Affairs at the Norman Paterson School of International Affairs, Carleton University, As an Individual
Do you mean brief statement towards that question?
4:35 p.m.
Doctoral Student in International Affairs at the Norman Paterson School of International Affairs, Carleton University, As an Individual
We need resources to really discuss and communicate with these communities.
Again, I think the organizational change that needs to happen will impact this as well. Even if you are looking forward to working for the CAF some day, if you're hearing about all the harassment towards visible minorities, indigenous, LGBTQ+ and women, that's definitely going to deter you as well.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you.
Before I suspend, I just want to thank both Ms. Mayer and Professor Okros on behalf of the committee. You've certainly launched our study in a very positive direction. It was very useful. Thank you for your thoughtful comments.
With that, colleagues, we'll suspend while we re-empanel.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
With that, we are re-empanelled.
For our second hour, we welcome Andrea Lane, defence scientist at the Defence Research and Development Canada's Centre for Operational Research and Analysis; and Madeleine Nicole Maillette.
I would now invite both of you to give your five-minute statements, starting with you, Ms. Lane.
4:40 p.m.
Andrea Lane Defence Scientist, Centre for Operational Research and Analysis, Defence Research and Development Canada, As an Individual
Thank you for the invitation to speak with you today.
I am a defence scientist, but I'm appearing as an individual. As such, I'm not really able to comment directly on current policy, except as it intersects with my research. I'm also a proud navy wife.
If I could begin with what I feel is the key factor in making recruitment and retention in the CAF so challenging, it is that there is no CAF culture. There is instead a thousand different microcultures within the CAF. Every service, every occupation, has a particular set of traditions, requirements, habits and vocabularies that are specific to it, and they are often at odds with those of other occupations.
A recruiting campaign that attracts someone to a very physical, aggressive and identity-based occupation like infanteer might actively discourage someone who is interested in becoming a search and rescue technician. Figuring out what universal patterns of behaviour are harmful—such as heavy drinking or sexual harassment—is the easy part. Understanding how things such as traditional but untested requirements for upper body strength to access certain occupations, and how those requirements potentially discriminate against women, is more complex and requires sensitive research and unit-level solutions.
This brings me to the second challenge, which is the tension between individuality and universality. In seeking to make the CAF more welcoming for people who don't fit the traditional mould of a rural, old-stock Canadian man with a stay-at-home wife, the CAF has instituted policies around dress and grooming, parental leave, posting, service couples and so on that are designed to support CAF members with different personal and family needs.
Unfortunately, the policies that benefit some members are perceived by others as disadvantaging them or as weakening a foundational aspect of military culture, such as the universality of service, which is sometimes voiced as “a soldier is a soldier is a soldier”. Even when leaders recognize that universality has always been code for white, anglophone and male, there is a very real concern that, beyond a certain point, individual accommodations destroy the esprit de corps that, for some members, is at the core of their military service.
This is seen as a cultural shift, but it is more accurately an economic transition. In previous decades, Canadians joining the CAF accepted a loss of autonomy for the protection of a career that could support a family on one income. This is a career where you move frequently but housing was available and subsidized, and where your kids moved from school to school but would meet old friends on base schools around the world. Now, the situation is dramatically different. Most families are dual income by choice or necessity, and many CAF bases are located in places where it is difficult for spouses to find meaningful and gainful employment. Housing costs have skyrocketed, and CAF members who move frequently are at the mercy of the market, while others who stay in one place are making large profits.
The perks of CAF service no longer outweigh the loss of autonomy and the severe family strain it can create. Policies to support individuality can only go so far when the CAF is facing the structural and economic problems that are rooted in Canadian society writ large.
Finally, the third challenge is evidence. We know from prior research that women and other minorities face a wide range of barriers in mostly white, mostly male institutions such as the CAF. What we don't know is how to fix that in the specific context of the military. For example, if women are perceived as bossy, shrill or unlikable when they are assertive, this can make them a less effective leader. How do you tease the effects of sexism out from the reality that most women in the CAF will lead men for the bulk of their career? How do you distinguish a woman who is a poor leader from a women who's experiencing the corrosive effects of sexism from her subordinates?
Every CAF advancement decision is noticed, discussed and dissected on social media and will be the subject of rumour and grievance, so being transparent about what is happening when people are promoted or not is key. When it comes to culture change, we don't know what best practices look like because war is a very difficult experimental condition to replicate. Every researcher and policy-maker who wants to change the bad aspects of CAF culture—sexism, sexual misconduct, racism, homophobia, groupthink, anti-intellectualism and cronyism—runs into the same argument: “Hey, this is what has worked in the past. How do I know your suggestions aren't going to get people killed?” The truthful answer is, I don't know.
What I do know is that the CAF is desperately short of people. The sexual misconduct scandals have broken Canadians' trust in their military, as well as CAF members' trust in their leadership. As Canadian society becomes more polarized, and as trust in institutions declines even further, the CAF must adapt to survive. One way it can adapt is by careful, evidence-based and transparent changes in culture, training and advancement.
Thank you. I welcome your questions on anything I've presented or on another aspect of recruitment, retention and culture change.