Evidence of meeting #15 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was family.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4 p.m.
Liberal
4 p.m.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you very much to the two witnesses for being with us today.
My questions are general and are for Ms. Mayer and Dr. Okros.
There's been a lot of talk about people leaving the Canadian Forces, but I feel like there's not necessarily a lot of talk about those who stay.
Many may choose to stay in the Canadian Forces because they love what they do, but is it possible that some stay because they have no other choice?
Can the fact that military personnel are unhappy in their jobs contribute, in some cases, to the toxic climate in the Canadian Forces?
4 p.m.
Professor, Department of Defence Studies, Royal Military College, As an Individual
I'm not sure which of the two of us that was directed to, so I'll start on this one, if I can.
All employers have some issues with regard to employees who choose to stay. However, I would suggest that the majority of CAF members acquire valuable work skills that can allow them to move to other jobs if they choose to leave the military, so I don't think the idea that they can't get another job is the reason why they may not leave. People stay in jobs when they're in positions that earn them pensions, so people may stick around for a little longer to be able to get their pensions to where they would like them to be.
In general, I think the vast majority of those who are in uniform are there because they want to be there. That would be the main comment that I would make on that.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Before I move on to another question, I'll give you the floor, Ms. Mayer.
4:05 p.m.
Doctoral Student in International Affairs at the Norman Paterson School of International Affairs, Carleton University, As an Individual
I was just going to say that I agree. I was looking at the departmental planning, and only 65% of the CAF currently would describe it as a positive workplace. Maybe we are seeing the effects of people staying in the CAF who are not seeing positiveness or who do not want to continue working there.
I agree. I do believe that once you've gotten enough experience in the CAF, there's a multitude of options in the workforce if you would like to leave.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Ms. Mayer, at the beginning of your opening remarks, you said that members who contribute to the hostile work environment in the armed forces should be removed.
In your opinion, are these withdrawal processes effective, on the one hand, and on the other, known to members of the forces?
4:05 p.m.
Doctoral Student in International Affairs at the Norman Paterson School of International Affairs, Carleton University, As an Individual
Yes. That would be after a lot of training, a lot of awareness brought to the issue and a lot of one-on-one discussion to instigate and maintain effective organizational change over a long period of time. Eventually, the members who do not wish to change would have to be removed. Currently, it is difficult to remove members. This would be primarily for new membership, including in their contracts or including in a performance management review that this is something that actually is valuable—having a positive work environment, having an inclusive work environment—and measuring them against indicators that show they are participating in this diverse and inclusive environment.
I think that would be the primary way in which we could remove members over time who do not wish to change and who do not create a safe and inclusive work environment.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you very much.
Ms. Mayer, you mentioned that people don't always know what they're getting into when they join the armed forces, partly because the ads can be a little misleading.
Shouldn't there be more emphasis on coaching when they join up to identify the recruits' strengths and offer a specialized pathway that really matches their potential?
4:05 p.m.
Doctoral Student in International Affairs at the Norman Paterson School of International Affairs, Carleton University, As an Individual
Yes. I would agree that there needs to be more information about certain positions. The CAF does have recruitment specialists who talk with candidates. I think there is an opportunity for candidates to ask questions. I think the issue, though, is that candidates may not know what kinds of questions to ask. Because the CAF website is so general in a lot of senses, I do think it lacks quite a bit of information. I think it would be helpful for the CAF to provide more information on each individual job.
As Professor Okros said, there are so many different positions and so many different job requirements within the CAF that to have just general pages on salaries, for example, doesn't really answer questions on a particular job. Including that, and maybe providing an FAQ section during the recruitment process, would be helpful.
This would require, though, the CAF garnering more data on its recruits, more data on its employees, disaggregated data. [Technical difficulty—Editor] surprises were there when CAF members joined. They didn't realize that this position included certain tasks and things like that. Therefore, I think there needs to be more communication. I think the recruitment officer could be a good starting point for that, for sure.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Do the armed forces know who they are recruiting? Is their offer specific enough?
Are the ads targeted enough?
4:10 p.m.
Doctoral Student in International Affairs at the Norman Paterson School of International Affairs, Carleton University, As an Individual
I would argue no, especially seeing the current situation with the training that happened on the west coast a couple of weeks ago. I don't think the recruitment process, especially at the beginning, does enough to even weed out the candidates who aren't qualified for the position. You're allowed to click on boxes like “doctor” and “medical professional” without any proof that you have any kind of qualification. Including—
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Unfortunately, we have to leave it there.
Ms. Mathyssen, you have six minutes, please.
April 4th, 2022 / 4:10 p.m.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to both witnesses for appearing today.
In the last Parliament, I sat on the status of women committee, and we studied sexual misconduct in the military. We heard from Major Kellie Brennan, who said that General Vance was “untouchable”. Sadly last week we saw him walk away from criminal charges. It was quite a disappointing response from the judge involved, in my view at least.
There's seemingly all over an idea or certainly the impression, whether it's a prime minister, a former minister, a judge, internally within the CAF or externally in the civilian courts, that there isn't that accountability or that culture change happening. There's certainly a willingness, and I believe there have been a lot of conversations from the new minister and from General Eyre about wanting to change. In terms of this recruitment and retention, how do they get past the impressions that we're still seeing repeatedly in the media?
This is to both witnesses, please.
4:10 p.m.
Professor, Department of Defence Studies, Royal Military College, As an Individual
Paxton, would you like to go first?
4:10 p.m.
Doctoral Student in International Affairs at the Norman Paterson School of International Affairs, Carleton University, As an Individual
This is going to take a lot of time now. There have been two years' worth of media publicity showing all the issues with harassment and non-inclusiveness within the CAF. There needs to be a top-bottom approach, where the top leaders, including civilian leaders, need to take accountability and need to force change. I think there's also a bottom-top approach with hiring practices, what kind of training is required and performance reviews.
On that, I would recommend a 360-degree performance review process, where any kind of supervisor gains information from subordinates, fellow supervisors and on up the hierarchy. Hopefully in the future someone who is that problematic will not get hired for leadership and will not become this untouchable person.
4:10 p.m.
Professor, Department of Defence Studies, Royal Military College, As an Individual
My brief comment, if I may, is that Canadians, parliamentarians and CAF members need to recognize that there are going to be legacy issues that are going to work their way through. We've seen that with allegations raised against individuals that go back decades. That is something that's going to have to be worked through, because standards were not clear and those that were clear were not effectively enforced at all times.
It's important to recognize and take into account when things happened, what the policies were and what the approach was. I think that would be valuable for some technical briefings on the initiatives that are being put in place.
I think several things that Paxton has spoken to are issues that senior leadership have now recognized and are certainly talking about and working on. Whether that is going to get the degree of culture change in the time period that people are looking for is something that is going to be watched fairly closely.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Okros, you spoke about more family support systems presented by other countries, but you just touched on it.
Can you go into more detail and provide specific examples to the committee of these family support systems?
4:10 p.m.
Professor, Department of Defence Studies, Royal Military College, As an Individual
It depends on the country, but there is more that is offered in terms of things like assisting family members with some of the examples that I gave, such as securing a family doctor.
For example, in the American system, families can draw on their military medical system for some of their services. The Australians provide some referral services so that, when they change states in Australia, the family on their own doesn't have to go out and get on a long waiting list for family doctors. There are referral services and networks for spousal employment and even with the recreation facilities that are available at bases. Again, a lot of parents struggle with getting the kids signed up for swimming lessons.
Other countries provide more of those kinds of services. They used to be available at Canadian bases and wings. Over a period of time with budget cuts, those are areas that have been cut out. As I said, in terms of family housing, there are a number of areas where other countries provide support for families that the Canadian military has had to cut back on because there are no funds for it. There's more of a focus in the CAF on the fact that you're living on the economy and, to some extent, you're living on your own.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
I believe at the status of women committee we heard from women who specifically referenced a lack of supports for housing, absolutely, and for child care. Could you comment on that as well?
4:15 p.m.
Professor, Department of Defence Studies, Royal Military College, As an Individual
Certainly. In the majority of cases, child care, and particularly after-hours child care and on weekends, are the kinds of child care services that need to be provided. Again, when people get deployed, it's not like signing your kids up for the typical workday child care system.
There have been some efforts to try to provide some of that, but, again, some of Canada's allies provide a lot more funding to support that because the recognition is that, by supporting the family, you're actually allowing the person in uniform to do their job. You're enabling them to deploy or go away for training without causing significant tensions or pressures on the home front, or causing them to have to eventually quit because they can't juggle it all.
There are areas where there could be increased support for families that would have a direct consequence on retention.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you, Professor Okros.
Colleagues, we have 20 minutes and 25 minutes' worth of questions.
Mr. Motz, why don't you start us off with four minutes?
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, panellists, for being here today.
Dr. Okros, how many people seek out the Canadian Forces every year to apply as a recruit approximately?
