National Defence Committee on April 25th, 2022

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to our witnesses.

General Whitecross, thank you very much for your service—what a long and storied career. It's nice to see you again here on this committee.

Madam Gallant talked a bit about the recruitment process. She called it a “choke point”. I was going to call it a “bottleneck”. You touched on it, and thank you for that.

Think about our allies. Can you provide any information on who's doing really well with those parts of the process that are slowing people down and that might make them take a different career path because the process is too long?

[LGen (Ret'd) Christine Whitecross]

Honestly, I don't know which allies or colleague nations are doing well in recruiting. It's not because I don't think there are any. It's just that, honestly, I don't know.

To get prepared for this, I did speak to the general officer who is in charge of recruiting right now. I know that she's very much seized with trying to modernize the recruiting system and do a whole bunch of other things, and I would really encourage you to speak to her when you have the opportunity.

In terms of recruiting, I come from a family of military, so I understood the military and I knew what the military was when I was going into it. I think awareness for the Canadian population has to really increase if we want to increase the number of recruiting successes across the nation in terms of meeting a whole bunch of other targets and a bunch of other things.

I would offer that, and I would submit that, you around the table have something to do with that by working with the people in your ridings—many of you have recruiting centres—to get the information out. There are 105 occupations. When people talk about the military, they think infanteer, pilot or whatever. They don't realize that there are so many other opportunities there. We really need to get the message out so that more people will apply.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much.

Dr. Scoppio, you didn't get a chance to weigh in on this particular topic. In your opening remarks, you said that the recruiting system is “inefficient and slow” and you said that there is “insufficient marketing”.

Could you chime in a bit on that question from that member and from me on the bottlenecks in the recruiting process, on who else as an ally might be doing a good job and on who we could look to for marketing ideas?

[Dr. Grazia Scoppio]

Thank you for your question.

Based on the research we did on the ROTP, the regular officer training plan, and in looking at it through a GBA+ lens, we did surveys with officer cadets in the military college, officer cadets who were doing their degree through military universities as well as applicants for the ROTP. This is no longer anecdotal information. I can tell you for a fact that the system is too slow. Some of our respondents said their files were lost. They were lost, and if you worked in the private sector and you lost files, I would submit to you that your career in that private sector would not last very long.

In terms of marketing, as I mentioned to you before, I think the U.S. does a good job. They're much more aggressive with their marketing. I know that you didn't ask me this, but I've been working on one particular project and looking at immigrant participation in 12 different countries. I can tell you that Canada is at the more restrictive end of the spectrum, because, at least officially, we do not recruit non-citizens, so right away we are restricting our pool of possible applicants.

These are some of the things that to me are key. If the process is too slow, we're going to lose applicants. We're definitely going to lose applicants if we lose their files. The security system is like watching paint dry, and as a minimum we need to open up to permanent residents of Canada. That's as a minimum.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I didn't want to cut you off with your last three questions, but I just did.

Madame Normandin is next for two and a half minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to continue with the same line of questioning as Mr. Fisher. It has to do with your opening remarks, Dr. Scoppio, more specifically with processing times for hiring documents.

The report released today talks about members of the military who have become extremists. I understand that a security process must be followed when recruiting individuals into the forces. However, could the selection process be shortened, while maintaining the criteria to ensure that quality individuals are recruited? Can the process be shortened without taking away what is necessary?

[Dr. Grazia Scoppio]

That's a good question, Ms. Normandin. The simple answer is yes. I'll give you an example I myself experienced. This is not hearsay.

Early in my career with the organization, I worked at the Canadian Defence Academy. I was chosen to be one of the civilians who would represent Canada at the NATO Defense College in Rome.

Imagine that, because I had lived in Italy—Italy is a NATO member country, ma'am—in the previous decade, the clearance process took one year. In the meantime, someone else took the position for which I was selected to represent Canada at the college.

The army colonel to whom I reported at the time later became a general and retired. He had told me that it was not possible. I swore to him that it was and that I had to give up the position.

These things aren't just made up and it's not anecdotal: Research has proven that the timelines are too long, we're losing applicants, and the process needs to be shortened while making sure we meet the security criteria.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Ms. Mathyssen, go ahead for two and a half minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Professor, you were speaking about a lot of the support programs and so on, and how they're insufficient in terms of the armed forces. Certainly, from a lot of witnesses in this current study, we've heard about housing and the difficulties with moving and not being able to afford housing anymore. I think all Canadians are dealing with that, but there's certainly a very unique issue with the armed forces. Some of the witnesses have said that there should be a reinstatement of the post living differential.

For both witnesses, could you comment with a yes or no on whether you think that's a good idea?

[Dr. Grazia Scoppio]

I'm going to leave this question for the general. She's probably much better versed on this topic.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Excuse me, Professor Scoppio, but we just suddenly switched from English to French. Can we just go back at it again? The translators are going to do it.

[Dr. Grazia Scoppio]

The question was in English, so I answered it in English.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

The French translation came through on the English channel. That's the issue.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Would you like to ask your question again?

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Yes. Ultimately it was just that witnesses had mentioned the necessity of reinstating the post living differential, and I want to hear opinions on that from both.

[Dr. Grazia Scoppio]

I'm sure it would be helpful, but in terms of the specifics, I think General Whitecross would probably be best placed to answer this specific question.

[LGen (Ret'd) Christine Whitecross]

I would offer that PLD is actually quite a topic—it certainly was when I was still serving—and it has to do with the disparities in the costs of living among different parts of the country. Some have far better access to housing, as you can imagine, than others do. In certain areas, specifically those areas that are hard to reach—Cold Lake comes to mind—housing is very expensive, so this post living differential is supposed to help create equality among armed forces members across the country.

The issue, in my humble opinion, is that there is just not enough PLD to go around to sufficiently address all of the people in the Canadian Armed Forces who live in areas in which the housing market is so expensive. I don't think it is sufficient.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, MP Mathyssen.

I'm not quite sure whether we're losing General Whitecross. No, she seems to be back.

Mr. Motz, you are next, for five minutes, please.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you very much, Chair.

My questions are going to be directed to General Whitecross.

Thank you again for your service to our country—it's greatly appreciated—and for your career, which is exemplary, to say the least.

Being retired now, you can speak in hypotheticals, because you don't necessarily represent the Canadian Armed Forces anymore.

We are anywhere between 7,500 and 10,000 personnel short, depending on who you read and who you talk to. It could be a recruiting problem, a retention problem or both. You are now in charge of...whether it be the Canadian Armed Forces or recruiting and retention. What would you do if you had that role to fix both the recruiting side and the retention side?

You have the full four minutes and 12 seconds left to respond.

[LGen (Ret'd) Christine Whitecross]

Thank you very much.

If I were in charge of the world, which thankfully I am not, there are certain parts of recruiting—and again, this is Chris Whitecross speaking—that I think can be contracted out. We can get somebody else to do it far more efficiently in terms of the process, that big.... Somebody was talking about the process being so slow and people dropping files or whatever. That's certainly one of the aspects.

The issue of the number in the Canadian Armed Forces is a recruitment plus a retention issue. You can't have one without the other. Generally we would recruit between 5,000 to 6,000 people a year, but if 10,000 people are leaving, you're going to be null and void in terms of your numbers going forward.

There is work happening, which I'm really pleased to say started back in 2015 and 2016, to really look at the career of a military person and to speed up going from reserves back to regular force, and to give them a little more autonomy in terms of where they live—so that's extending the posting cycles and all that kind of stuff. I think those are really important things that need to be looked at.

I would say that a modernization of the Canadian Forces recruiting system that supports all of the recruiting has to happen as well. You need to have the right people at the recruiting centres. I agree. You need to have recruiting centres that are reflective of Canadian society—people who want to be there—that are fully manned and provide the wherewithal to help people make the right decisions when it comes to what occupation they want to pick.

I would also say, if I were queen of the world, that it would be great if there was more effort put into connecting with Canadians, to let Canadians know what the Canadian Armed Forces is, who they are, what they do and the tremendous good they do. I know there has been some negative media—I get it—and some of the things I've read in the last decade have hurt me to the core of my being.

I also maintain that, at the core, the institution is made up of good people, and they're doing some tremendously important and very significant work, not just here in Canada but around the world. Regrettably, very few people know that. I think it's really important that we connect better with Canadians and that they have a better characterization of what their military does, because their military is there for them and we need them. To embrace them and show them that, when they see an ad for the Canadian Armed Forces, they should see themselves in that and see that this is a possibility for them.

If you could manage to do all of that, you might be able to increase the numbers.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Motz.

I think we have a very capable candidate for queen of the world right now.

For the final five minutes, we have Ms. Lambropoulos.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to both of our witnesses.

For my questions, I'm going to continue from where a couple of my colleagues left off.

Ms. Scoppio, you mentioned in your response to my colleague Mr. May that the U.S. is doing a much better job at recruiting a more diverse population of candidates and that Canada doesn't necessarily put as many resources as we should or that we don't necessarily have the resources currently to put in that place.

Can you give any specific examples of what they do in order to attract that more diverse population that we're looking to attract as well? Can you can give us anything specific that we would eventually be able to recommend?

[Dr. Grazia Scoppio]

I can, one hundred per cent. We actually wrote a policy brief on this. It was part of this project that looked at immigrants in 12 countries. In some countries like the U.S.—and the U.S. is an example of the more open end of the spectrum—citizenship is not a requirement to join. In addition, joining often provides an expedited path to citizenship.

In my opinion, our labour force in Canada depends on immigrants. Not all of those immigrants are already going to have acquired citizenship. In particular on arrival, some people are going to be looking at different jobs and they will find out that they are not welcome in our forces until they have acquired citizenship, which can take up to five years or longer, so we have lost a very huge pool of possible candidates.

Where are these immigrants coming from? The majority of immigrants to Canada now come from Asia and Africa, so by definition these are visible minorities by and large. Not only are we missing out on potential recruits but these potential recruits are men and women from different visible minority communities.

If I were the queen—nobody appointed me the queen, but if I appointed myself the queen—that would be the number one thing I would do. I would change that requirement. It is entrenched in law, so the Canadian Armed Forces cannot change that on their own.