National Defence Committee on Sept. 27th, 2022

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

My next question has two parts.

During the analysis that follows the request to use the military, is a rating used to assess the level of dangerousness or complexity associated with the deployment or request?

Is the primary reason for using the forces the level of difficulty, complexity or dangerousness of an event, or the operational capability, as you mentioned? In other words, are the Canadian Forces used more for their ability to quickly put in place a chain of command and resources or because a situation is dangerous or complex?

What is the most important consideration? What was it in the context of Fiona's arrival?

[MGen Paul Prévost]

I would say that the main factor that weighed in during discussions with the province during Hurricane Fiona was the magnitude and the danger of that hurricane. It was a question of whether the province's resources would be sufficient. Sometimes there are enough first responders on the ground, but we know that communication systems and power will be affected. So the discussions evolve over time, but they are based on the scale of the disaster. Of course, all disasters are dangerous, but it's the scale of the disaster that weighs heavily in the decision-making process.

The most important resources that need to be considered very early in the process are the liaison officers that we send to the provincial coordination centres to ensure better liaison with the Canadian Forces. Also, the first resources that we offer to the provinces are the people that we deploy to help with the planning in the coordination centres. So it's a concerted effort commensurate with the scale of the disaster. We are trying to be as proactive as possible. We had already sent people to the command centres in the provinces in the days before the disaster.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Let me come back to the level of dangerousness. Not everyone can intervene in forest fires, for example.

Is this part of the assessment upstream when forces are asked to respond? Is there some sort of dangerousness rating or something like that?

[MGen Paul Prévost]

I thank the member for this question.

With regard to forest fires, while both phenomena present dangers, a hurricane is more dangerous and of greater magnitude than a forest fire. There are places where it is easier to use the Canadian Forces. The Canadian Forces are not well equipped to respond to forest fires. We leave it to the experts on the front lines. They are the ones who fight fires in general. We come in to support to make sure the fire doesn't start again, to do patrols and to help the people in the area, but we leave it to the provincial authorities to deal with the forest fires, because they are the ones who have the capacity to do it. They are on the front lines and close to the danger.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Madame Normandin.

Ms. Mathyssen, you have six minutes, please.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses. It's good to see you once again.

The previous witnesses on this study and you, yourselves, were talking about the unique capabilities of the Canadian Armed Forces, their infrastructure, what they can do and how quickly they can respond. We certainly saw this during the pandemic. The military was called upon to do warehouse management and supply chain management.

Could you unpack the difference between the unique capability of the Canadian Armed Forces in those instances versus the significant underfunding of what is ultimately expected to be there in terms of a public resource or a public service?

[MGen Paul Prévost]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. That's a good question.

I would say that one of the unique capabilities—other than the hard tools that you think of with the military—is our planning power. We train our people to plan their campaigns. We spend a lot of time looking at contingencies—branch plans, as we call them. This is a unique capability that we bring in early in any response. That's why we push people to the fore to help local communities plan around those contingencies.

The member mentioned the distribution of vaccines, for instance. This is a place where our role in the Canadian Armed Forces was to help plan the effort rather than to distribute the vaccines per se.

I'll turn to my colleague, Brigadier-General Major, to complement.

[BGen Josh J. Major]

In addition to the formal training that we receive in planning at all levels in a career as a Canadian Armed Forces member, I would also not want to discount the individual desire of each member to give their 100%, which goes without saying. There's a lot of initiative, which we encourage, of course. We see that translated across as our members conduct what we would consider non-traditional tasks and apply some of the training they've received to be able to achieve the local effect requested by whatever level of government.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

In terms of that specialization and unique capability, ultimately one could argue that if a public service—for example, the health care system or what have you—hadn't been potentially underfunded and hadn't experienced so much chronic underfunding of its infrastructure, an emergency wouldn't be as severe.

I also want to lump into that Newfoundland, for example. It hasn't had its own provincial emergency response. There has been more and more reliance upon the Canadian Armed Forces, over and over. Is there an understanding or a fear that, potentially, because of this chronic underfunding and because of provinces shifting funding to other resources and services, not emergency funding, there will be more reliance upon the Canadian Armed Forces and less of that unique capability response?

[MGen Paul Prévost]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a good question, again.

Obviously, I can't speculate. I'm not aware of levels of funding in the different provinces. What I can say from where I sit in the Canadian Armed Forces is that we've noticed—specifically because of the pandemic, which was very anomalous as an event—the resilience being built at local, municipal and provincial levels. We see that resilience has been built, and I think people have noticed over the last few years that climate change is bringing more weather events upon us. We've seen more coordination at all levels and better capabilities at the local level being put in place, so hopefully we will continue on that track so that we don't have to rely on the Canadian Armed Forces as often as we do.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Is there anything from Brigadier-General Major?

[BGen Josh J. Major]

Mr. Chair, thanks for that question.

Again, as emphasized, I would just say that we are the force of last resort. However, make no mistake, support to Canadians when required is our top priority, and we'll continue to be ready to provide that support whenever and wherever it's required.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

To sort of flip that, is there any instance or scenario where the Canadian Armed Forces wouldn't be seen by the provinces as providing the right kind of supports in terms of the relationship...or they wouldn't be accepted in terms of that conflict that exists, or non-conflict, or working together? Have you ever seen any example of that?

[BGen Josh J. Major]

We have a robust process in place when interacting with provincial authorities for a request for assistance, at which point there is obviously a discussion that occurs between provincial officials, municipal officials and the Canadian Armed Forces in trying to determine the correct response in terms of a particular situation. Those negotiations will continue after the request for assistance has been authorized and as the situation develops. A key piece of that relationship is communication, to ensure that the proper resource is used to address the issue of the day.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, MP Mathyssen.

Mr. Doherty, this is the five-minute round, and you have five minutes, please.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses who are here.

Time and again, we are seeing, especially when there are wildfires in my province of British Columbia, international forces having to come and actually fight our fires. Our military are there for access and egress, primarily, protection of property, rolling up of hoses, etc.

Would it not make common sense to try to put in some form of either wildfire suppression training or other disaster relief training as part of basic training for our regular force, or would this be viewed as dulling the spear?

[BGen Josh J. Major]

Mr. Chair, that's a very good question.

Having dealt with support to wildfires in British Columbia in the past, we know there is a fine line, of course, that needs to be established between what the Canadian Armed Forces can bring to the table and what professional firefighters and fire management bring to the table.

In order to maintain our ability to respond to a wide variety of different natural disasters or to support provincial authorities or territorial authorities or indigenous communities, we need to be able to remain as flexible as possible. Therefore, we try to keep our broad competency base well trained in order to meet not just domestic, but also international obligations. Then, when required, we do a bit of specialized training in order to provide that value added, which, as specifically relates to wildfires, is the ability to support the firefighting professionals in their work, allowing them to focus on the key issue, which is the fire, and allowing us to do a bit of the mop-up operation behind them.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Would it make more sense, then, to look at our reserve units or rangers for this training?

[BGen Josh J. Major]

Mr. Chair, thank you for that follow-up question.

Again, the reserves train to meet the same obligations as the reg force in terms of the mission sets we're asking them to provide either domestically or internationally. The rangers, as well, have a unique capability that allows them to be a sensor and allows us to get an idea of what is required in certain communities. That is then the foothold that other elements of the CAF can use to flow the appropriate resource into that particular area.

What I would say in direct answer to your question is that flexibility, which we have by remaining broad-based and then focusing to respond to a particular situation, is part of our strength to respond to Government of Canada needs.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

I'm a proud member of a disaster relief unit called Team Rubicon. We have Team Rubicon here in Canada. It's an international organization. We have the St. John Ambulance and the Red Cross, just to name a few. Could these volunteer organizations not be used more in disaster relief? I know that the Red Cross is there very often, specifically more as a paperwork service or logistical service when we have massive events like the wildfires in B.C., or the flooding across B.C. and Atlantic Canada.

Are there some organizations that you feel perhaps the Canadian government should be looking at to engage more in these types of events?

[BGen Josh J. Major]

Mr. Chair, thank you for that question.

I won't speculate on what organizations the government can use more or less of. What I will say to that question is that as the Canadian Armed Forces goes into different disaster areas in support of local, provincial and territorial authorities, we value the contribution that all different partners bring, and we work side by side with them to be able to achieve the mandate, which is to ensure that Canadians are well taken care of in their time of need.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We'll have half a minute.

Mr. Fisher, go ahead.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here again. Acknowledging that you do have day jobs and understanding just how important those day jobs are, I want to thank you both. If you could, please pass along my thanks to the Canadian Armed Forces on behalf of the people of Atlantic Canada.

As each year goes by, the effects of climate change become more and more severe. Right now, my home province of Nova Scotia, and Atlantic Canada and eastern Quebec—as you know and as you've acknowledged, with thanks—are dealing with the aftermath of hurricane Fiona. It seems strange to call it a brutal storm. It's so severe that we'll probably find out it was the biggest storm ever to hit our shores.

Last night in my speech in the House of Commons, I said that the government moved faster than the speed of light. Without batting an eye, the Prime Minister, Minister Blair and, of course, Minister Anand responded to the provinces' requests for help with an immediate yes.

We already have Canadian Armed Forces personnel on the ground. They are incredible, and they're doing what they can to help. They're supporting Nova Scotia, Newfoundland and Labrador, and P.E.I. It is important to acknowledge that, as you know, in Atlantic Canada we have a large number of Canadian Armed Forces personnel, and we're very proud of them. They're cleaning up their own homes, all due to the damage of hurricane Fiona.

This storm showcases the importance of operational readiness for these domestic deployments. I wonder, gentlemen, if you could walk us through the process that provinces use to request assistance from the federal government. How are the resources coordinated, and under what conditions is the Canadian Armed Forces brought in?

[MGen Paul Prévost]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. That's again a very good question this morning.

This process starts when we can see the event coming. Floods are one of them; hurricanes are one of them. This process starts with conversations between officials at the federal, provincial and municipal levels on the predicted track, in this case, and the size of it, which looked initially much like Dorian in 2019.

Discussions start at that level, first in terms of what the impact is going to be here, where the predicted track is, where the vulnerable communities are and what they will need. It's a dialogue and a bit of a negotiation on what the best way to apply the different resources is, because the provinces understand their tool kits. At the federal level, we understand our tool kits in terms of not only the Canadian Armed Forces but a whole bunch of federal resources that can apply here.

It's a conversation that is led by Public Safety Canada, with the government operations centre as the chair. We then have discussions internally and with the province, and we come to an agreement about how we think we should divide the labour. That's how it starts.

As the event hits, we get confirmation that this will be required. Then there's an exchange of letters from the provincial elected members to Minister Blair, and then Minister Anand, to agree on what the federal support will be, as well as the tasks assigned to the Canadian Armed Forces in this case.

I'll pass it on to Brigadier-General Major.

[BGen Josh J. Major]

Thank you, Major-General Prévost.

Additionally, as this process described by Major-General Prévost is under way, the Canadian Armed Forces takes a number of steps to ensure that we are ready to support as requested by the provincial and territorial governments. We will ensure that the requisite number of troops are ready to depart when the call comes. We pre-position equipment. We establish liaisons. We send reconnaissance teams to different areas to ensure that we have a good understanding of that particular area. Then we ensure that we are able to smoothly transition into those areas to provide the support right away.

As a situation develops, there are a number of processes we follow. If local troops are not adequate to fill the needs as requested and approved by the different levels of government, then we will ensure that we have the troops ready to come in from different parts of Canada if that is what is required.