National Defence Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2022

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you.

You've mentioned how climate change also has changed the reality in the north and has made it more accessible.

What are the plans going forward to make sure we still are able to protect the Arctic, and Canada, I guess, through the Arctic? How are we involving the indigenous communities in that plan?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

There are two questions to answer in a little less than 30 seconds, please.

[Neil O'Rourke]

I'll touch on that. There's a lot of stuff in there.

The first thing I'll say about climate change is that things are changing. There sometimes is a misperception that melting ice means there's a much longer navigation season. What we're seeing actually is increased risk, because multi-year ice that used to stay much higher north is now breaking off and coming south.

We don't necessarily know week to week. One week in a specific area historically the conditions would be pretty much the same. Now we're sometimes seeing ice in one year, no ice in the next year. That's really complicated for voyage planning.

With regard to how we—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, we're going to have to leave it there.

Thank you.

Ms. Lambropoulos is young, but she's learned. She's very clever.

Mr. Desilets, welcome to the committee.

You have the floor for six minutes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also thank our guests.

Good morning, colleagues.

I would like to ask a few brief questions, but the answers may have to be longer.

Mr. O'Rourke, of the 19 icebreakers, how many are operational during the winter?

[Neil O'Rourke]

The national fleet has 19 icebreakers. The number of icebreakers in operation depends on the month or week. As a rule, we try as much as possible to maintain ships in the spring and fall, when there is no ice on the St. Lawrence, in southern Canada and in the north.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

How many are functional during the coldest time of the year?

[Neil O'Rourke]

I'm going to have to send you the information about the year 2022.

I am an expert on our Arctic activities; the 19 icebreakers are part of the national program and the number in service varies from year to year. If you want the numbers for this year, I don't have them, but we can certainly get back to you on that.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Do you have any idea of the number? Is it half? I personally have no idea.

[Neil O'Rourke]

It's much less than that.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Is less than half enough to keep Canada safe?

[Neil O'Rourke]

Once again, I will talk about the Arctic. In our view, the vessels currently available are sufficient to deliver our current programs in the north.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

What do you mean by “sufficient to deliver our current programs”?

[Neil O'Rourke]

In principle, it starts with icebreaking. Every year there are between 50 and 80 icebreaking requests in the north, which require a number of ships. Normally, four or five ships are needed. In addition, our platform helps scientists in Canada, in our own department and elsewhere; a few ships are focused on that. For us, the magic number is between seven and nine vessels per season, and the Coast Guard is able to provide them.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

This was alluded to earlier, but I would like to follow up on it. The Auditor General's report identifies a number of deficiencies with respect to infrastructure projects. Obviously, this is detrimental to the proper functioning of the fleet. It would involve procurement risks, she says.

Do you agree with this finding?

[Robert Wight]

Yes, there are risks in the provision of the new fleet and there will continue to be, bringing on Davie, when they get under the umbrella agreement and start building our program icebreakers. There will continue to be risks, but there is sufficient mitigation put aside in the purchase of the “new to us” icebreakers that Neil mentioned.

We are confident that we will be able to continue to send seven to nine vessels to the Arctic as required and keep the St. Lawrence open, as well, down into the Great Lakes, until the new fleet arrives.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. O'Rourke, given everything that's going on right now geopolitically and the Russian arsenal, which is quite large compared to ours, are the two polar icebreakers that are being ordered going to be enough to keep Canada safe?

[Neil O'Rourke]

Thank you for your question.

As you know, the Coast Guard plays an important security role in the Arctic. However, we are not a military organization as such. Obviously, we work closely with the Canadian Forces and the RCMP. In answer to your question, I cannot necessarily answer for everyone. However, in terms of our responsibilities for economic and environmental security, among other things, I believe that the two polar icebreakers and the rest of the investments that are being made now will allow us to meet the needs in the years to come.

Also, over time, we have worked with Russia by participating in the Arctic Coast Guard Forum. Last year, all the Arctic countries, including Russia, participated in an exercise at the North Pole. What we learned there is that no country, not even Russia and its capabilities and investments, would be able to organize a search and rescue mission for a ship at the North Pole, for example, on its own. This is the reality that the seven remaining countries are working on. There is going to be an incident, because already this year the cruises are starting to go up to the North Pole.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Desilets.

Unfortunately, your time is up.

Ms. Mathyssen, you have six minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

It's a good segue because I was interested.

Thank you for being here today.

We've heard a lot about that increase in traffic and as it relates to cruise ships. Ultimately, as that Arctic opens up, the interest in the extraction of natural resources is going to be very high. Do you believe that it would be beneficial for the government to start to limit what that traffic looks like, including commercially and in terms of that extraction and that tourist aspect, considering also the environmental impact it has on the Arctic itself?

[Neil O'Rourke]

I don't think it would be necessarily appropriate for me to weigh in completely on all aspects of it from my role in the Coast Guard. That being said, I certainly can speak a little bit about vessel traffic.

One of the things to keep in mind is that we often hear about big percentage increases in the OAG report. Very accurately, it says it's tripled. What we're talking about when we say doubling and tripling is maybe instead of one vessel coming by a day, two are a day. It isn't the 417 or the 401. I think that's important to keep in mind when we talk about vessel traffic.

Transport Canada has rules in place with regard to the carriage of AIS, which essentially allows us to track vessels. The rules that are in place right now do not require small vessels to have it. Any ship that has fewer than 12 passengers or any smaller sailboat or yacht or those kinds of, what we call, adventure tourists in some cases are not required to carry any AIS or have that on board.

We see that some of those folks who come through the north will work with us. They'll actually check in on a daily basis to let us know where they are for safety purposes, but others don't. They'll just come into our waters, and we don't necessarily know where they are. Sometimes they get into trouble. From a search and rescue perspective, we'd certainly be in favour of having a better capability of knowing where some of these smaller vessels are at all times so that if and when there is a problem, we can kind of skip the search part and get right to the rescue part, which in the north in cold waters can make the difference between life and death.

Hopefully that gives you a bit of a sense of what we're talking about.

I might also just mention that any conversation about limiting ship traffic in the north would probably be viewed by other nations, which I know have made it very clear to us in the Coast Guard and to others that they have different views on the Northwest Passage.... They're internal waters, of course, for Canada, but not everybody has that perspective, so they might have things to say about any additional changes to the regime in the north with regard to ships.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

You talked about that relationship in terms of the Arctic Council. Its being on hold has caused a lot of issues, even just in terms of gathering data and research.

We've talked—and we've had witnesses come forward in this committee—about how Russian people see their Arctic as a vital part of their identity.

In 2023, there will be a change of leadership. What do you think of that relationship going forward and the continuation of the Arctic Council without Russia's involvement? What do you foresee in terms of problems with that?

[Neil O'Rourke]

With regard to the Arctic Council, ultimately it's not for me to weigh in on exactly what the future should look like. However, I will talk about it from our coast guard perspective.

I'll come back to that example I gave about the cruise ship at the North Pole.

Our reality right now is that if there is an incident at the North Pole that requires an evacuation of a cruise ship, we will have to work with Russia because, as some of you may be aware, Canada and all the other Arctic nations have signed on to an international search and rescue and environmental response agreement, or MOSPA agreement, which essentially has the Arctic divvied up amongst the eight nations. We have a responsibility internationally to deliver on search and rescue right up to the North Pole. So do the Russians on the other side and then, of course, the Americans and the Danes.

Realistically, if there is an incident that happens at the North Pole, we will need to work with them. From our perspective, while appreciating and understanding the geopolitical reality right now, we come back to that reality that, whether we like it or not, we may be put in that situation. As a general rule for us, exercising and communicating with partners in advance of an incident is going to likely lead to better outcomes in the incident.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

In the very limited time I have left....

Across the board, and certainly in terms of the CAF, we've seen the recruitment and retention numbers declining. Are you seeing the same in the Coast Guard?

Also, you mentioned that you supplement your fleet with third party vessels. What sort of training is expected of them or provided to them when they're dealing in such dangerous waters?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

There must be a pattern here: two questions in the last 30 seconds.