National Defence Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2022

[Dave Taylor]

Okay. Thank you.

I'm in Yellowknife. In the Northwest Territories, we have an operational unit in Yellowknife and in Inuvik. In both places, there are locally available charter aircraft, single-engine and twin-engine, that have range to cover near the community but not the entire Arctic. We have about a hundred volunteers in the Northwest Territories. There are more in Whitehorse and predominantly Iqaluit, Rankin Inlet, Resolute Bay and Cambridge Bay in Nunavut.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

As I understand it, there is a huge shortage of pilots in every aspect of flight. I certainly have seen it in my commute to Ottawa.

What future recommendation could you make in terms of the Government of Canada's investment into more pilots? If you're getting them, and they're doing this on their own as volunteers, that skill set is maybe not unique, but it's certainly not something that is easily found. How would the government deal with that in terms of future pilots that are needed?

[Dave Taylor]

I could answer that for the north. I think the continued use of chartered aircraft is the appropriate solution, because even if you purchased an aircraft, we wouldn't have a volunteer pilot who could fly it. There are just not that many capable, experienced, qualified individuals sitting around waiting. If you bought an aircraft for us up here, you'd probably have to hire a pilot to fly it.

Down in southern Canada, it's totally different. They do have volunteer pilots available who could likely fly something. For us in the north, certainly in the Northwest Territories and Nunavut, I think the solution is the continued use of chartered aircraft and volunteer navigators and spotters and search coordinators. To me, that gives us the best bang for the dollar.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen.

Mr. Bezan, you have five minutes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Mr. O'Rourke.

I'd just to clarify something from an answer you gave earlier. Does the Canadian Coast Guard have no permanent stations in the Arctic at all?

[Neil O'Rourke]

We have one permanent station in Rankin Inlet now that's open seasonally. Then we have our headquarters in Yellowknife. We have a base in Hay River. We have our MCTS centre in Iqaluit. Those are all permanent.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

With the opening of the sea ice, with more navigation occurring up there, are there any plans to have more especially SAR stations across the Arctic?

[Neil O'Rourke]

I think certainly.... I mean, more SAR stations across the Arctic obviously will require investment. I think from our standpoint, and working specifically with Inuit, Coast Guard and Inuit are very much aligned that to improve the system in the north, that would be the right place to make investment should investment come in the search and rescue program and system.

Hopefully, that answers the question.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Yes. Even though I'm a prairie member of Parliament, I do have a Coast Guard regional station. It's seasonal. Of course, they fly in from B.C. the Coast Guard staff as well as SAR techs to be there.

Do all the Arctic vessels that you guys are currently sailing have helicopter capabilities?

[Neil O'Rourke]

They don't all. Typically, most of the vessels we send north do. The Terry Fox, as an example, does not have helicopter capability, and neither do some of the interim icebreakers. This year, as an example, six of the seven icebreakers that were in the north had a helicopter on board.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

So not every ship can go out there for a constabulatory exercise. If you had to interdict a ship that was illegally sailing, you would have to go to Transport Canada or the RCMP. You wouldn't have the ability to ferry someone on and off with a helicopter.

[Neil O'Rourke]

You're correct on that about that particular ship.

What we would typically do is probably utilize a helicopter from one of our other ships. We also have a couple of shore-based helicopters that are often up there doing maintenance work, so we would look at using one of the other assets to transport people as required.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

When we talk about Greenland and the Danish coast guard, are they operating on the same basis as the Canadian Coast Guard—meaning civilian—or do they also have more constabulary capabilities?

[Neil O'Rourke]

In fact, they're neither. They're beyond that. Their coast guard and their military are integrated. When I talk about the Danish defence force's Joint Arctic Command—which is essentially the presence they have in Greenland—they're responsible for everything the Canadian Forces would be, everything the Coast Guard's responsible for as well as some of the constabulary roles at RCMP.

In fact, they have a relationship both with us at JTFN and with the RCMP, and we're trying on the Canadian side to coordinate our organizations as well.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

In terms of Arctic coast guards, are we the only one with a civilian force?

[Neil O'Rourke]

What I've found in my experience working for the Coast Guard is that every coast guard in the world is different and they all line up differently. They all have different functions.

Specifically in the Arctic, Sweden's is also a civilian force. The Norwegian Coast Guard, for example, is actually part of the Norwegian navy, but separate. I won't talk about the Russians. The U.S. Coast Guard, as I said earlier, is like a combination of our Transport, Coast Guard and RCMP. Then there are the Danes. They really are all different. The Finns are the Finnish Border Guards, so they're actually almost like a combination of CBSA and the Coast Guard, if you will.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

When we are talking about NORAD and modernization—looking at better security in the Arctic and having more awareness up there—NORAD has been expanded to include not just the aerial domain but maritime domain as well. Right now if you go down to Colorado Springs and you walk in, the U.S. Coast Guard's in the NORAD building and they're part of the day-to-day operations. The Canadian Coast Guard, of course, is absent.

Knowing that there are greater threats in the Arctic—we know there are greater challenges with commercial traffic, tourism and potentially adversarial ships sailing through, under and above the surface—how do we look at the Canadian Coast Guard being more of an integrated package with our overall national defence, especially in the Arctic? You guys have by far the greatest capabilities for protecting Canadians' interests and protecting our sovereignty in the Arctic.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Again, we're kind of getting into policy stuff. I'll certainly permit you to respond as you see fit, but it is policy.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I do think it is relevant to the study and I do believe this is something we need to think about.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I agree. It is relevant to this committee. I think the same question has been asked three or four times and I think maybe it's something the committee needs to focus on, but I'll let the question go forward, Mr. O'Rourke, and we'll move on.

Thank you.

[Neil O'Rourke]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think, from our perspective, the system here in Canada is working well. In any kind of organization, if you will, if you have multiple things that are all part of the same organization, I'm sure there can be opportunities but there will also be challenges. We work very closely with law enforcement and military security partners and we support them in their mandate.

As I mentioned earlier, we have direct roles to play in a lot of the other security elements. We're very much part of the Arctic security discussions with RCMP, with Canadian Forces and with international counterparts, notwithstanding our mandate. From where I sit, I think the system is working well and there's really good coordination.

Ultimately, I will leave it to others to decide about responding to some of the bigger policy questions regarding other advantages.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Bezan.

Madame Lambropoulos, you have five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thanks, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here with us today.

My questions will mostly go to CASARA. I find it cool—I think this is the first time that I have realized that there is a volunteer organization that's also working in partnership with the government to provide search and rescue.

First of all, we've been hearing a lot in this committee about the shortage of labour and the shortage of personnel in the armed forces, but we heard at one point that there was a huge shortage in volunteers. I'm wondering if you've felt that as well. I know it's very specialized volunteers who can fly planes, but I'm wondering if you've felt that as well and whether it's something that your organization has noticed.

[Dale Kirsch]

Our membership has gone down a little in the past few years, especially with COVID being out there and being an issue. For the most part, we've been able to get most of the volunteers we need across the country, I'd say. If people own an airplane, they like to fly it. We provide them with an opportunity to fly whereby they get some of their expenses paid, so that helps. People see aviation as a neat thing to be involved in. We get volunteers coming to us.

We also get volunteers from among younger people—pilots who want to have an aviation career. They see CASARA as a good thing to have on their resumés. That helps us attract volunteers, as well.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you.

I'm not sure whether you already answered this question at some point in your testimony, so I apologize if it's a repeat question.

Do you do training with the armed forces at all? Obviously, you're doing some of their work and helping them do what they are trying to accomplish. Is there any opportunity for joint training, and are people prepared before going out?