National Defence Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2022

[Neil O'Rourke]

I'll get into the personnel one a little bit.

We're in a bit of a different situation from the Canadian Armed Forces. We haven't seen a declining number. That being said, in the last few years, the number of Coast Guard members has actually increased.

We still have, though.... There's an international shortage of mariners. Certainly, recruiting and hiring enough people to be able to operate all of the new vessels that we talked about is, really, one of our top priorities, if not our top priority, at this point in time. Certainly, it's something that's top of mind because, again, we're operating in an environment where, internationally, there's a dearth of mariners. We also know that the navy is recruiting domestically, as are we, but at the same time, we don't have a situation where we necessarily see a decline.

I will say that there are situations right now where we are short in specific trades, such as engineers and cooks. We have sometimes been forced to tie up ships because we are short a cook or an engineer and are just not able to find one within our complement. It certainly is an issue for us, and we are very focused on trying to make improvements.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen.

Mr. Lewis, you have five minutes.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's an honour to be here at the committee today.

I would start off by saying that, ironically, I used to sit on the international trade committee before I was transferred over to the transport committee. Right before I left the international trade committee, we were actually studying the Indo-Pacific strategy. I know there's a lot of discussion around that.

By the way, gentlemen, thank you very much for your service to our country.

The first question I have, through you, Mr. Chair, is for Mr. O'Rourke.

It's a follow-up to Mr. Bezan's question earlier. It's specific to the Indo-Pacific strategy and our northern gateway with Russia and China. I know that you mentioned you didn't have an answer to that question. Perhaps this committee could get a written response. Would you be willing to do that, sir?

[Neil O'Rourke]

Yes, absolutely.

I will just note that we do work.... I mentioned the Arctic Coast Guard Forum. We also have a North Atlantic Coast Guard Forum and a North Pacific Coast Guard Forum. There is engagement and discussion, certainly, with all of the partners around that, and that includes China and Russia, at that forum.

We'd be happy to provide you with a more detailed written response.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you so much.

How many times a year does the Coast Guard interdict foreign vessels that are in our Arctic waters without permission?

[Neil O'Rourke]

Under our Coast Guard mandate, we don't have the authority to do that. We are essentially the civilian fleet for the Government of Canada. Other departments might look to us for anything that would not require an intervention from the navy or a military vessel.

We do work very closely with Transport Canada and the RCMP for this kind of situation. For example, in the last couple of years because of COVID and the pandemic, there were restrictions on cruise ships and adventure tourists being in the north. We did work closely with Transport Canada and other federal agencies. However, at no time were we required to do an on-water interception of a vessel.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Mr. O'Rourke, I'm sorry. My time is limited, and the chair makes sure that we stick right to it. It's all good.

Does the military ever go on the Coast Guard, or does the Coast Guard ever assist the military?

The reason I ask this, Mr. O'Rourke, is that ironically I'm from the Florida of Canada. That's my riding. Our Coast Guard works incredibly closely with the U.S. Coast Guard. Our officers work incredibly close. That's why I'm trying to figure out if there's been an opportunity, or if there is an opportunity in the future, for various agencies to work together. Does it happen today?

[Neil O'Rourke]

It does. I think there's always opportunity to do more of that kind of thing.

I'll start with the U.S. Coast Guard. What you see in the south is also similar in the north. We work very closely with them as a partner.

With regard to the Canadian Armed Forces, we've had navy personnel on board our icebreakers, learning from our captains in advance of the launch of the AOPS. Certainly, there's an agreement between the navy and the Coast Guard to develop our personnel and do exchanges. Again, we're looking at expanding that relationship. That does kind of happen today, yes.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. O'Rourke.

How often does the Canadian Coast Guard interact with the U.S. military and our Canadian military? Is there aligned training? Are there set dates for training, or is it just kind of pie in the sky?

If it is pie in the sky, that's okay, but what needs to be put in place so that we can leverage both opportunities?

[Neil O'Rourke]

First of all, with regard to the Canadian military, we work very closely with them. For example, my office in Yellowknife is a five-minute walk from the commander of the JTFN, who I know will be here on Thursday. We have formal, set meetings, and we have informal discussions. That's just my relationship with the JTFN.

Here in Ottawa, we also have a relationship with CJOC, and I could go on. Suffice it to say, there is a very strong relationship between the Canadian Coast Guard and the Canadian Armed Forces. We certainly do work together, but we're always looking at new opportunities to strengthen that collaboration.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

I'm into my final minute, and I'm only going to ask one question, Mr. Chair, to make your day better.

What's the protocol for vessels operated by foreign state actors versus commercial foreign vessels?

[Neil O'Rourke]

I'll start off by saying that it's Transport Canada's responsibility and mandate, essentially, to look at a lot of this stuff. Where the Coast Guard comes in is when vessels actually show up in the Arctic. We have a marine communications and traffic services centre in Iqaluit that monitors all vessel traffic in the north. From our perspective, we wouldn't treat one any differently than the other. We monitor all vessel traffic that goes on. That information is, in part, used for safety purposes. It's also sent to the MSOCs. The east coast MSOC in Halifax is responsible for all the Arctic and has multiple departments sitting there. That information would go to them and is then used by a myriad of departments and agencies in Canada for different purposes.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Lewis, for adhering to the time. I guess we now have to look in our sock drawer to find out what's going on.

Mr. Fisher, you have five minutes.

That was pretty bad, wasn't it?

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I didn't get that joke. For a guy who delivers a lot of bad jokes, I didn't get it.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That was a lame dad joke.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here.

I'm going to pick up on some of the things that Mr. Lewis was talking about. He went back and forth between the U.S. military and the Canadian military, so I'm going to try to sew it up a little bit and get some of your thoughts.

You talked about how you work with Transport Canada and the RCMP. You said you're a civilian fleet and that by virtue of being a civilian fleet, you're not a military outfit. Maybe you can tie up in a nice bow how the Canadian Armed Forces and the Coast Guard do work together in the Arctic for Canada's interests in the north and for the Canadians who do live there. I know you were back and forth a little bit with Mr. Lewis on the U.S. comparison. I'm a big fan of comparing U.S. Coast Guard, which is a military organization, with the Canadian Coast Guard, which is not. I've often joked that if we threw a pistol in the glove compartment of every vessel, we'd hit our 2% pretty quickly.

I want to know if you could tie that relationship together for me.

[Neil O'Rourke]

Okay. With regard to the Canadian military, the relationship is both at the strategic and policy levels. As a starting point, we have one day a year where the senior command staff of the Coast Guard and the RCN get together and have conversations about things we have in common. In the last conversation we had, we spent half the time talking about the Arctic—just to give you a sense. It flows all the way down to, at the more junior operational levels, Operation Nanook, which I'm sure is something you're all very familiar with. It's run by the Canadian Armed Forces but is very much supported—some elements of that—by the Coast Guard, so our planners work directly with the JTFN planners, for example, to develop those scenarios and those exercises.

Hopefully that gives you sense of the really broad relationship. As you might suspect, our relationship with the navy is a lot closer than it is with the army and the air force just because of our mandate. We all operate on the water, and we have a lot in common as the two federal organizations responsible for being on the water for Canada.

Hopefully that answers the question. I know you mentioned the military and law enforcement and all the rest. I'll point out that, of the eight Arctic nations—and I am including Russia in this—Sweden and Canada are, in fact, the only two that don't have a constabulary role or some kind of military or law enforcement role. We're very familiar with the conversations, both international and domestic, because, again, that Arctic security conversation that's happening in the North American north is happening in Alaska with U.S. military, U.S. Coast Guard, our Canadian military, our Canadian Coast Guard, and it's a conversation that happens.... It's an ongoing conversation through governance, conferences, formal bilaterals, etc.

Thank you.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you for that.

With regard to the capabilities that the DFO and the Canadian Coast Guard bring to northern operations, can you brief the committee on those and the roles that these capabilities would play in marine surveillance, navigation and—as I think you were talking quite extensively about with Madam Lambropoulos earlier—search and rescue? I don't know if you had a chance to finish your thought in the comments you had with her.

[Neil O'Rourke]

Those are a lot of excellent questions and there is a lot of information I could share here.

Talking about our capabilities, it's going to start with our people and our assets. I also want to talk about relationships quickly, so I'll try to squeeze that.

On the assets, you've heard about the ships. We have radar towers. We have a series of aids to navigation, like buoys and other such things, to either assist with communication or try to avoid navigation accidents. That's a lot of the asset side of what the Coast Guard brings to the table.

We also have a permanent Arctic region set-up as of 2018, so we have a permanent presence all year round in the Arctic.

Building on the relationship side of it, we've talked a lot about the international and domestic federal relationships, but we also have very important relationships with the territorial governments. Very importantly, we have relationships with Inuit, first nations and Métis communities and also with their indigenous and/or Inuit governance structures, which include land claim organizations in many parts of the Arctic.

I think we have very strong relationships across the board with all those different leaders and levels of government, right up to the international and then we also bring people and assets there.

DFO has some of the same. We are one of the most present federal departments in the north along with, perhaps, the Canadian Forces and RCMP. We are often asked by other federal departments.... Sometimes it can be simple questions around relationships. Other times it could be whether it possible for them to do a certain thing that's part of their mandate off of our ship.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Fisher.

Mr. Desilets, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. O'Rourke, as I understand it, you said that if there were a major problem on a cruise ship, the Coast Guard would not be able to assist it in certain places in the Arctic. No other country would be able to do that. Do I have this right?

[Neil O'Rourke]

Yes, you've got it right. I was talking specifically about the North Pole. Last year, an exercise with PONANT showed that for all the countries in the Arctic, it would take four days for a ship to get there. That's why I said that about the ability to respond. It is so far away. It would take at least four days to get to those places. That's where there could be a problem.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Are there any cruise ships that end up so far away?

[Neil O'Rourke]

Yes. This year a few cruise ships have gone up there.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Could we think about a helicopter service to help them?