National Defence Committee on Dec. 8th, 2022

[Karen Hogan]

The main message coming out of our audit is that there is a presence in the Arctic now, but that there are some gaps in surveillance because we know certain satellites aren't meeting the need. If action isn't taken, there is a significant risk that there will be gaps in surveillance capabilities and the presence in the Arctic in the next decade.

That is why our national shipbuilding strategy highlighted the need to take some real concrete action now to turn the replacement of vessels on a viable path. We're seeing that those delays are persisting, so this is a second call to action, quickly, so that we don't run into significant gaps as a country in the Arctic.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Earlier, you touched on the Canadian Rangers. They seem to be our first line of defence, and we really are reliant on them in our Arctic.

Do our Inuit monitors and rangers have access to drones to help them do surveillance of our Arctic? If not, why not, and if so, how capable are they?

[Karen Hogan]

I am going to turn to Nick on that. I do believe drones are in the plans, but I don't want to misspeak. I'm going to see if Nick has any insights.

[Nicholas Swales]

As we mentioned in the report, there are plans for both military and civilian drones to operate in the Arctic. They are not specifically aligned with the rangers, and we didn't look at the capabilities of the rangers in this report.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

If Russians have a submarine in our Arctic waters right now, are we able to immediately identify that threat, yes or no?

[Karen Hogan]

That's hard for us to answer, because our audit was really based on the surface maritime awareness and not subsurface or air. It really is a question best asked of the parties in the Arctic.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

We know the government has announced funding to modernize NORAD. Clearly, National Defence has the money to do it. We still see very little progress on the points you have raised in your report, everything from satellite surveillance, icebreakers, patrol aircraft to infrastructure.

Given the amount of time it takes to procure and build these things, and the infrastructure they need to survive in the north, how confident are you that we have the domain awareness we need in the Arctic in the next five years?

[Karen Hogan]

Our audit identified that right now there are gaps in the maritime domain awareness. The longer those gaps persist and action isn't taken to fix them, the wider that gap will become or the more reliance will be needed on other means. That is why we have a call to action, so that these gaps don't become more significant in the next decade.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you.

You conclude your report by saying that National Defence and Transport Canada “had not taken the action required to build the maritime domain awareness they collectively needed to respond to safety and security risks associated with increasing vessel traffic in Arctic waters.”

Do you believe it's a failure of the companies tasked with building these capabilities, or is it failure of political will?

[Karen Hogan]

Again, that's a tough one for me to answer, because we're looking at what the federal public service is doing. There are many gaps that were repeatedly identified in 2011, 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2021, and then there was the call for a third party to look at gaps. Those keep refining the gap identification. They confirm similar gaps. Now, it's about taking action.

I think you'd have to ask the departments involved in our audit what is hindering their ability to take the action needed.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

Your time has expired, so we're going to move on.

The next question is to Ms. Lambropoulos, please.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Bezan.

I'd like to thank our witnesses for being with us today.

I'm not 100% sure if you'll be able to answer my questions, but you can guide me as to whether or not you have thoughts on these questions.

First of all, we know that some of our NATO partners.... The goal of NATO is 2% spending. What are your thoughts on upping our defence spending to match that 2%?

[Karen Hogan]

It really isn't my place to comment on policy decisions. It's my place to hold the government to account for running their programs in accordance with those policy decisions.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

The question is more whether you think that, based on the recommendations that you have in your report.... Obviously, you think more spending needs to happen in order to accomplish the recommendations that you have.

[Karen Hogan]

Our audit identified that the government identified it has needs. Those needs include having extra ships, new ships, new satellites and new aircraft. Those all come with additional spending.

I wouldn't argue that it's necessarily always about more money, but maybe more effective procurement so that you can minimize cost increases. Delays traditionally bring about cost increases.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

We've mentioned several times today during this meeting that these ships take a long time to build. What do you think the reason might be for these gaps?

I know you're not necessarily looking at that, but based on this report and in comparison to past reports, what might be some of the reasons we are behind where we should be?

[Karen Hogan]

I would encourage the committee to look at our national shipbuilding strategy audit from earlier on. In that audit, we talked about how the strategy isn't just to procure and buy new ships. It was about supporting an industry, and there were many factors. There is give-and-take in the procurement process, because the strategy is more than just procuring ships.

Again, I would encourage you to have a conversation with National Defence about the actions they've taken to address some of the recommendations that we provided in that shipbuilding strategy to increase the efficiency and effectiveness of contract management in order to get the ships in a more timely way.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you for that. I appreciate the recommendation.

Of course, any action taken by any government has certain side effects and a ripple effect on future governments as well, because when something isn't done, or when spending stops at a certain point, certain catch-up needs to be done.

Do you think it would be accurate to say that some of the gaps—and where we are currently—could also be partly due to some of the backlog left behind? For example, in the early 2010s, there were some serious cutbacks on defence spending. Do you think that, possibly, some of the reasons why we are where we are today could be because of how we've chosen to spend over the last decade?

[Karen Hogan]

I think the safety, security and sovereignty of our Arctic is something that all Parliaments should be concerned with. Of course, every decision has a ripple effect. All we looked at here were the actions being taken between April 2021 and March 2022.

I can give you the state of the situation now. Trying to find a better solution—looking forward and finding viable solutions to speed up delivery—is the best place for everyone to focus.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you.

You spoke a little bit about the shipbuilding strategy and how we should be looking towards that report and seeing how we can make it a more efficient strategy. What would you say are some of the current obstacles that lie in the way of reaching certain goals that you've set out?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Answer very briefly because we're almost out of time.

Mr. Swales.

[Nicholas Swales]

If I might comment briefly.... In the previous report, one of the things we commented on was something called a “target state” in the shipbuilding strategy: the ability to produce ships efficiently. That was part of the strategy. There were some issues that we identified with how that was being implemented, and we recommended that it be improved with the new shipyard that's going to be added. That is still in train, but that would still be an important component to making an improvement there.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

We go to two and a half minutes for the next couple of questions.

Mr. Desilets, you have the floor.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Hogan, I really liked it when you said in your earlier remarks that this should be of concern to all governments, since it's about personal safety and national security. On the other hand, you said that the contracts were very complex. I think we all understand. However, a responsible government must be a responsible manager. Despite the complexity of the issues, we should be able to see things coming, whether we're Conservative, Liberal, Bloc or any other party. This is not a criticism, but I find the reason given to be inappropriate.

My question is for all three witnesses.

To your knowledge, would it be beneficial to look at how other countries operate in terms of procurement and construction, for example?

[Karen Hogan]

I certainly agree with you. When you have equipment, you need to know its useful life and you have to see the need to replace it coming. It's not a need that comes out of nowhere. I certainly agree with you that it requires some long-term planning.

It's hard for me to answer your question. You have to take the time to invest, set up the contracts and put it all in place. The national shipbuilding strategy involves more than just buying ships. In my opinion, this balance must be struck, and it's what's causing the delays in replacing ships.