National Defence Committee on Dec. 13th, 2022

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you.

We're looking ahead. We heard from Justice Arbour that we have a lengthy process. We have a lot of internal reviews and potentially a full decade of work ahead of us.

Speaking to the civilian system, are you concerned that the backlogged civilian system is not going to be able to handle the additional burden?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I will say that Madame Arbour—and you've just heard from her—was skeptical about the ability of choice to work. In other words, if there was a choice for a civilian system to reject the case, her view was that they would reject it because they know that the military system is available. In order for us to ensure that we are going to move forward with significant reforms that will protect survivors in the military justice system, we need to move ahead with one option.

In the interim, the interim recommendation of Madame Arbour will continue to apply, but I'm very much aligned with Madame Arbour on the need to move forward with recommendation number 5 in order to ensure that full-fledged systemic change occurs for the benefit of victims and survivors.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

My last question would be.... In order to implement something—talk is very cheap—we actually need to see action on it. Is there any way you can suggest to the committee here today that you can report back in three months, two months, or four months? What is the magic date when you can report back to us on what progress you are making?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I really appreciate this question, because this is exactly the approach I plan to take. First and foremost, I want to say that our response tabled to Parliament and a road map forward on every single recommendation in the report is a different approach from what has been taken in the past. Now everyone can see—Canadians can see and you all can see—what our plans are.

Furthermore, I have directed my officials to ensure that there is a tech brief every quarter on our progress, as we've been doing for the last year. Furthermore, the external monitor will be reporting in April and then periodically thereafter to ensure that she is being transparent to the public. Finally, I am always more than happy to come back to committee, whenever invited, to provide you with an update on our progress.

This is the approach. In order to build confidence, we need Canadians to see the progress and we need to be held to account, and that is exactly what I intend to occur.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you.

Changing gears a little bit, an article was published yesterday in the press with the details of the call sign assigned to a Canadian Armed Forces fighter pilot that were shocking and offensive. The officers were said to have been given administrative punishments.

Do you know what those administrative measures were?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

First of all, I want to say that I was appalled and deeply concerned when I heard of this simply unacceptable incident. That incident is the very reason we need to embark on a culture change of this magnitude and why I will work every day to ensure that it occurs.

I know that the RCAF is taking measures to update its approach in the tradition of call sign review boards. It's going to involve formalizing the process to provide proper oversight. It's going to involve ensuring that these are conducted in an appropriate and respectful manner.

I will ask the chief of the defence staff if he has anything to add to this.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Sorry, he probably does have something to add, but he doesn't have any time to add it.

With that, I'm going to turn to Madame Lambropoulos, for six minutes, please.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here with us today, and to all of our panellists, to answer some of our questions this morning.

We just heard from Justice Arbour, who spoke about the importance of switching from the military courts to the civilian courts with regard to sexual abuse. You did speak about being on the same page as her in terms of that being the only option, but you also mentioned that you're looking at different routes you can take. She outlined a couple of very specific ones, which we'll be recommending to you in our report, hopefully.

I'd like to know what you see as potential challenges to making this shift and why you think it can take as many years as it might take, when it seems that a policy or a decision by Parliament could move us in the right direction quickly.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

In the fine print of the report, Madame Arbour herself acknowledges that this is going to take several years to implement. She recommends that we move forward with the interim recommendation while we address some of the challenges ahead with implementing recommendation 5.

I think the gist of your question is this: What are some of those challenges? Some of them include the investigation of cases outside of our country, the capacity of the civilian system and the civilian force to take on these cases, as well as the need for co-operation and collaboration with provincial and territorial jurisdictions.

Those are some of the challenges. I'll ask my deputy minister if he has anything to add to that.

[Bill Matthews, Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence]

Certainly. Thank you, Minister.

I have two quick points, Mr. Chair. Number one is that in conversations with provincial, territorial and federal counterparts, they have flagged the investigations piece as being a challenge. I think a lot of people jump right to the prosecution, but the investigation piece is important. If you think about our military members and infractions or alleged infractions that may have occurred overseas, they may be dispersed by the time the investigation comes along. There's a cost element to provinces potentially, as they have flagged.

They have also flagged the issue of victim-centric...as well as time delays and questions as to whether the civilian system would, indeed, be more efficient.

There's a lot to work through. We've had some initial discussions, but there are more to follow.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you.

I know that culture change is really important to you. It's the main thing that the Arbour report discusses: the fact that there are challenges linked to culture.

I'm wondering if you could let us know what changes have been implemented so far and the direction that we'll be taking in order to address some of the recommendations related to recruitment. As we know, recruitment challenges are also very much linked to the less positive culture that the armed forces has had over the last years.

Could you let us know what you've been doing in order to change that?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Let me start by saying that we are at a pivotal moment in the Canadian Armed Forces where we need to ensure that the culture change initiatives continue to be implemented and where we need to ensure that we grow the Canadian Armed Forces for the benefit of Canada, for Canadian society. We call on the Canadian Armed Forces frequently: in hurricanes, in floods, in COVID-19. In order for us to be able to continue to rely on the Canadian Armed Forces, we need to grow the Canadian Armed Forces.

This is not a new point. That is why we have been very committed to culture change initiatives for years. What are some of the things already in place and under way? We are expanding the delivery of SMRC—that's the sexual misconduct response centre—programs and services across this country. We are developing an independent legal assistance program for survivors of sexual misconduct. We are increasing access to SMRC services to include all members of the defence team and military families. We are launching initiatives to improve grievance processes, including referring all sexual misconduct grievances to the military grievances external review committee.

In budgets 2021 and 2022, our government committed additional financial resources to ensure that the growth of these programs can continue to occur. In today's announcement, of course, you will now see a road map forward for every single one of the 48 recommendations that Madame Arbour put on the table.

Your question also spoke about reconstitution. Reconstitution, of course, is the nub of growing the Canadian Armed Forces. We have a CAF reconstitution directive to ensure that the CAF has the resources and personnel to deliver on missions. We are welcoming permanent residents to apply to the Canadian Armed Forces. This is going to increase the inclusivity and the diversity of the Canadian Armed Forces. We are increasing staffing at recruiting centres. We are streamlining that process, as well. We are engaging with under-represented groups. We're prioritizing women applicants. We are also implementing a new retention strategy.

I see the chief nodding his head. Do you wanted to add anything, Chief?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

The chief nodded his head yes. It has to be a good day when the chair has to cut off a Supreme Court justice, a minister and a chief of the defence staff.

In the event that you wish to have the general engage, we'd appreciate it if he could engage a little earlier in the process.

Ms. Normandin, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also thank the minister for being here and for her availability. We always appreciate it.

I would like to come back to the duty to report sexual misconduct, since Justice Arbour raised that issue today. This discussion about the advisability of abolishing the duty to report sexual misconduct has been ongoing for a long time. Justice Arbour referred to it in her report. That tool is not put to use, or is used very little, by the senior ranks.

In addition, there are no prosecutions when someone fails to obey the duty to report sexual misconduct. In your report, you say that the issue will be referred back to the working group to develop transitional measures. I am wondering what these transitional measures are, given that this is a tool that is not used.

Would it not be faster to abolish the obligation to report sexual misconduct?

What is the spoke in the wheels here?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to my colleague as well.

In accordance with recommendation 11 in Justice Arbour's report, we have tasked a working group with developing a plan to abolish the duty to report sexual misconduct-related offences. However, it is important to understand that an individual's privacy concerns come into play.

We have to make sure that there is a choice—this being the approach we are going to adopt—if we want to disclose individuals' private information.

My deputy minister may have something to add on this subject.

[Bill Matthews]

I have nothing to add, Minister.

Mr. Chair, General Eyre or even my counterpart on my right may want to add something.

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre, Chief of the Defence Staff, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I agree entirely that the system has to be changed rapidly. Lieutenant-General Carignan has made efforts to develop options for changing this system, this regulation, and I would like to see those changes made as soon as possible.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

My next question is a kind of extension of the question I asked Justice Arbour about reintegration of people who have been charged and acquitted, whether by a court martial or by the civilian authorities. We have to talk about these people being reintegrated, given that we also want to guarantee that the Canadian Armed Forces are a safe environment for victims.

To that end, what guidelines would be implemented to ensure that a fox is not sent back among the chickens, in a manner of speaking?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

That is a very important question, because are now having to increase Canadian Armed Forces personnel at the same time as ensuring that measures are put in place to punish people who violate our code of discipline.

Your question is important, because how can we make sure they will continue to be members of the armed forces?

We have a reintegration framework, a policy that enables us to monitor progress and thus make sure there will be a reintegration process.

Do you want to add something, General Eyre?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

I would like to add that this is a methodology, not a process. There is a list of factors to be considered. Each case is different, and that is why we have developed a framework to help our leadership make decisions, which are very difficult to make in these cases. It is hard to know what the right answer is.

Lieutenant-General Carignan may have something to add, because she is the one who developed the framework.

[LGen Jennie Carignan, Chief, Professional Conduct and Culture, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence]

Mr. Chair, the reintegration framework serves to provide considerations, but can also serve to create an advisory panel that the chain of command can consult for making difficult decisions about whether to reintegrate a member who has been charged with an offence.

Each case is thoroughly reviewed; all decisions of the court are taken into consideration. A decision is then made as to whether the person will be reintegrated into the forces or released. If the person is reintegrated into the forces, there will be a recertification process. Certain procedures must be followed before reintegrating a member. As well, over the months following reintegration, the member's performance and conduct will be continuously assessed.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Madame Normandin.

Ms. Mathyssen, you have six minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Minister, and to everyone joining us today.

In terms of recommendation 5, Justice Arbour today said that ultimately there is a potential, and a danger that she foresaw, in terms of military courts not wanting to let those cases go, and civilian courts hesitating to take them on. Ultimately she called for legislation in order to make that happen.

When will you be bringing forward legislation?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Madame Arbour herself said in her report that amendments to the National Defence Act can take years to implement, and she fully recognized the magnitude of the changes that she was requesting in recommendation 5. As a result, we need to make sure that we are providing support to survivors and victims of sexual misconduct. Therefore, the interim recommendation of Madame Arbour, which I accepted within days of being nominated as the Minister of National Defence, will remain in place while officials develop the options to implement recommendation 5.

For example, an ad hoc federal, provincial and territorial committee at the deputy minister level will be established to inform implementation options, as well as to systematize the process for transferring cases from the military justice system to the civilian justice system and—

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay. Thank you. I just have such limited time. I'm sorry.

I didn't really hear a date in terms of that legislation or addressing that. It concerns me, considering you've said how much you're fully accepting all the recommendations.

In terms of the recommendations, I'm going to recommendations 4 and 11 on duty to report, as my colleague had mentioned; recommendations 24 and 28, the cadet chain of responsibility; and recommendation 37, universality of service. All of these have been addressed by your response in terms of internal committees and audits of procedure, instead of direct abolishment of the duty to report, for example.

In terms of that internal reconstitution, those internal committees and discussion groups, it's a continuation of what we've consistently seen since Deschamps in terms of not allowing that light to shine in from an external point of view.

Of course, there's been the creation of the external monitor, but that external monitor responds specifically to you as the minister. As we've seen in terms of your predecessor, that was a specific and terrible problem where we saw women's careers and their sense of duty and everything that they had given to this country be hidden, because there wasn't a specific openness.

Can you explain specifically how that external monitor won't fall into the same problems that we saw with the ombudsman not responding or reporting to Parliament?