National Defence Committee on March 7th, 2023

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Minister, for appearing today. I'd like to echo all of my colleagues and say thank you so much for all your involvement in the CAF's efforts on this as well.

I would like to follow up a bit on what General Eyre just said. On the 31st, Transport Canada wasn't made aware of that first balloon, but it's my understanding that it was in the media. In fact, it was an Air Canada flight that encountered the balloon first and then reported it to NORAD. Just for clarification, was it NORAD that knew about it first, or was it in fact Air Canada?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Mr. Chair, for clarification, it was NORAD that knew about it first. I'm not aware of the timeline of Air Canada, but NORAD was tracking it before it entered U.S. airspace off the coast of Alaska.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay.

It was determined that this unidentified aerial balloon posed enough danger that it was warranted that we shoot it down, but we didn't close Canadian airspace. Is that correct? Could you explain the process for that and why we didn't close down Canadian airspace?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Are you talking specifically about the one that was shot down in Yukon?

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I believe that it was the first incident.... No, I'm sorry. It was the Yukon one. There are so many.

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Mr. Chair, I would have to go back and talk to our experts about what control measures were put in place from a NavCan-Transport Canada perspective to ensure that airspace was shut off. I'm not sure if that came up in the February 17 session.

General Molstad, do you have an answer on that one?

[Major-General Darcy Molstad, Deputy Commander, Canadian Joint Operations Command, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence]

Essentially, for the Yukon balloon, there was a restricted operating zone that was established, which is normal operating procedure for NORAD whenever there is an incident like this, where an investigation has to occur.

For the first event, which I think you referred to as well, airspace would not have been shut down because the reported altitude of that first surveillance balloon, which we know came from China, was at 60,000 feet approximately, well above civilian traffic, therefore traffic would not have to be curtailed. The one in Yukon did pose a reasonable risk to civil aviation. Restricted areas were established in order to ensure that people stayed away from that.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you for that clarification.

You mentioned, Minister, that it is deeply troubling that these incidents all happened in February. However, there's a 2022 annual report from the U.S. Office of the Director of National Intelligence, which states that in that year, 336 unidentified aerial phenomena were reported. Of course, by those numbers, that contradicts that all of a sudden we found these four. I'd just like to ask for that clarification.

It was, I think, mentioned by General Prévost that these specific phenomena weren't “squawking” correctly, so that's why they were downed. However, there's a bit of a contradiction, I think, which needs to be clarified, in that if you're talking about 336 over the year and all of a sudden in February there were four, our reaction level seems so high. Can you provide clarification on that and why those numbers don't seem to add up?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Well, to begin, I have not reviewed the report that you're referring to, so I can't verify the information that you're elucidating, but I will say that my responsibility as Minister of National Defence is to ensure that the operational effectiveness of institutions like NORAD continues unimpeded. What NORAD has identified, as mentioned, are four suspected objects that I have outlined already today. To my knowledge, there have not been others in Canadian airspace.

NORAD continues to do what NORAD does best, which is to monitor our skies and to control the skies if there are objects that are posing a risk to public safety and to our population, and that's exactly what NORAD did on February 11.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I'm certainly happy to get you the report if that is what is needed, but if there were 336 identified in one year and there were four in February, do we know how many have been reported since the time of those four, considering that there seems to be a general average over the course of one year?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Again, I'm not going to take a number from another country based on a report that I have not reviewed and extrapolate to what we are doing in Canada.

Reports about aerial phenomena come from many sources. This is not the same as NORAD detection. As I said, NORAD continues to do what NORAD does best, which is to monitor and control our skies.

I'm not sure, Chief, if you have anything you want to add to that.

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

I will just add that with these four you had a positive radar track and positive visual confirmation by NORAD aircraft, with sufficient detail to recommend actions. I can't speak to the other 200 plus that we talked about.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Ms. Mathyssen and colleagues, we have 30 minutes of questions and 20 minutes of time to complete a second round. To try to manage this, I think we'll take a minute from everybody, and that should do the trick.

You have four minutes instead of five minutes, Ms. Kramp-Neuman.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you for being here today.

I'll start by suggesting that I see that the lack of transparency and efficiency in dealing with the surveillance balloons has been concerning across the country. Further, whether Canada is well situated for future incidents of this nature is something that is definitely coming up with regard to the increasing frequency.

For today's purposes, I'd like to narrow down on the chain of command surrounding the third incident in the Yukon. The process of succinct decision-making is an absolute must, and I am fearful that this is where there are some gaps.

My first question is, what kind of process was followed in order to shoot down the balloon flying over the Yukon, and could you possibly try to walk us through the necessary chain of command needed to mobilize this?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I was actually in Washington, at the Pentagon, as we were tracking this suspected object.

It is extremely important to know that the efficacy of NORAD is based on the mutual co-operation that we share with the United States and have shared for the last 65 years, so I thank you for asking the question.

It is part of NORAD's process to track objects, including tracking the height of the object. As mentioned, when you have an object at 60,000 feet, it is less of a concern from a population standpoint and from a skies standpoint than an object at 40,000 feet. The object over the Yukon was at about 38,000 feet, which did then pose a risk to the skies. That occasioned the need to shoot it down, which NORAD effectively did.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

On what date was that, when you were first made aware of the CCP's balloon?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

The suspected object was shot down on February 11. I will turn it to the chief of the defence staff for further—

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Do we know when you were made first aware of it—on what date?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I would have to go back and review my notes. There were, as I mentioned, four incidents during a very short time period. We were tracking many of these objects at the same time, so—

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Perhaps, given the nature of the time, you could respond in writing to the committee. That would be helpful. Or we can do it in the second hour, just because of the time, so I can get on to the next question.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Sure. That's no problem.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

When did you speak to the Prime Minister regarding the detection of the balloon in Canadian airspace, and were you responsible for notifying him?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I am frequently in touch with the Prime Minister on a number of items relating to the defence file, and I spoke with him at length on February 11 and communicated with him on February 10.

I will say, again, that I speak with him frequently.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

That's fair enough. Thank you.

Who was responsible for making the final decision to shoot down the object over Yukon? What bodies were consulted and who was informed of this prior to its occurring?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Ultimately, the Prime Minister of Canada made the decision to shoot down the suspect object over Yukon, through the facility and the organization of NORAD, after consultation with President Biden and my discussion with the Secretary of Defense, Lloyd Austin. Again, the decision was made by the Prime Minister of Canada and involved using aircraft that is part of NORAD.