National Defence Committee on Dec. 12th, 2023

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

In terms of that production, ultimately a defence update would certainly be of use and helpful. Have you heard anything that's coming forward on that?

[Dr. David Perry]

I heard it was going to be swift in April 2022. It's December 2023.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I agree.

I would just like to, with my final seconds, give a verbal notice of motion. We'll send it out appropriately as well. It reads as follows:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), and that, given the Conservative caucus vote against Operation Unifier and other aid to Ukraine, the Committee undertake a study of the impact of the Conservatives’ vote to undermine Canada’s support for Ukraine and the message that this sends to the Ukrainian-Canadian community.

With that, I'll end my time.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You will.

I don't think that was within the parameters of this study, so it does require 48 hours. I'm going to wait for it to be tabled properly.

With that, I have Ms. Gallant.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Dr. Perry, Russian ships are—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I have a question for the clerk.

Do the Standing Orders apply to committees?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Hilary Smyth]

They apply generally.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I would suggest that motion is out of order, since it reflects on a vote taken in the House.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

It doesn't reflect on how persons have taken the vote. Anyway, I've already ruled on this.

I have Ms. Gallant, for three minutes.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Russian ships are also trying to circumvent the sanctions by turning off their ships' transponders. They're known as ghost ships. They also know how to manipulate their ships' locations, particularly to naval ships enforcing sanctions.

How should Canada, with our allies, combat this threat?

[Dr. David Perry]

We should try and do as much as we can to strengthen the regime of sanctions to interdict illegal material. More broadly, I think we need to recognize that it's ultimately going to be imperfect. Because of that, I think we need to spend at least as much time focusing on our own domestic production as worrying about what we can or can't do to limit what the Russians can do.

I think, if I were a Russian right now, I'd be pretty happy with what they've been able to produce, but equally, if not more pleased with how limited our collective ability in the west has been to ramp up what we can do in response.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Ukraine's grain is vital to feeding the world, but most of that grain has to pass through hostile waters in the Black Sea. With the breakdown of the grain deal last summer, the security situation of the Black Sea has been dire. What can Canada do more with our allies to monitor the deteriorating situation in the Black Sea?

That's for Dr. Perry.

[Dr. David Perry]

I'm not sure that there's anything specifically more we can do. I know we've been providing some surveillance information, but I don't know that it's the most useful role that we could play.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Canada currently has troops in Latvia as part of Operation Reassurance. That's our contribution to NATO's eastern flank.

NATO is also concerned about security in the Baltic Sea, given that the Russians have territory sandwiched between its enclave and Kaliningrad. With the threat of Russian submarines, what should Canada's navy do more with our allies to counter this threat?

[Dr. David Perry]

I don't know that there's a lot we can do. As we've seen recently in some reporting, I think our navy's ability to deploy operationally has become degraded due to the advanced stage of our naval frigates, as well as limitations on sailors in terms of actually going to sea. Right now we're stretched on having to make unfortunate choices around making contributions to NATO while simultaneously trying to deliver on the commitments we made as part of our Indo-Pacific strategies. It's not clear to me that there's any more that we could do without sacrificing elsewhere.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

How long would it take to get a fleet of submarines, say our first submarine, from right now, if we decided to tender an order?

[Dr. David Perry]

It would depend a whole lot on how we would go about doing that, but I have a huge concern that it's longer than the current submarines will last.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Should we then be thinking about planning our next submarine purchase once we have our current purchase, which needs to be now, on the books?

[Dr. David Perry]

I think that, ideally, we would have been planning that five or 10 years ago, but now is better than later, yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mrs. Gallant.

The final question is from Mrs. Lalonde.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I know I have only a few minutes, so bear with me.

Last week we saw, from the Leader of the Opposition, somewhat of a temper tantrum—that's what I would call it as a mom—where we had to vote for 30 hours in the House, and I was very pleased to be here in the House of Commons.

There was a certain aspect where most Canadians usually, as we go to vote on the supplementary estimates, wouldn't know what's important or not.

During this marathon, there was an aspect where I would like to hear whether you think that what we've been proposing as a government is important for Ukraine.

Part of the supplementary estimates was $500 million of funding for military aid to Ukraine. Would you say it is relevant, significant and important for the Canadian government to continue supporting Ukraine, yes or no?

[Dr. David Perry]

I do, but I'd say that I spent more time reading the estimates than I did following the votes, and I recognize that the structure of the parliamentary system means that, a lot of times, specific issues get lumped in with wider voting issues and are not kept individual.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

That's perfect.

Orest.

[Orest Zakydalsky]

I'm sorry. Is the question whether continuing to fund aid to Ukraine is important? If so, the answer is yes.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you.

What about the other individuals online, by video conference?