National Defence Committee on April 22nd, 2026

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

So I imagine it's too early to assess the benefits, whether in general or in the Armed Forces, of course, which is the case before us today.

[Stéphanie Chouinard]

Absolutely. It's too early to say what impact the latest version of the act will have on the new commissioner's mandate, since the regulatory process is still under way and has not been completed.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

You said that there were two possible paths. Even if the proof is in the pudding, can we say that it was the right thing to do?

[Stéphanie Chouinard]

Personally, I would have liked to see an administrative tribunal established to deal with delinquents who are the subject of repeated complaints, that is to say the Air Canadas of this world, not to mention any names. However, the other option also made sense. Now, as you said, we'll have to see what happens on the ground once the system has been implemented and fine-tuned.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

A tribunal would essentially be used to receive complaints and then rule on them.

I'd like to take this opportunity to make a connection with a question I previously asked those who have served: Does the hierarchy culture create a kind of fear of going to that option?

[Stéphanie Chouinard]

I'm not sure I understand the question. I apologize.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

Does the hierarchy culture intimidate people and discourage them from filing complaints?

I understand that this must not be the case in a number of circumstances. In the case of military culture, which is very particular and very unique in itself, the idea of establishing a tribunal might look good on paper, but the tribunal could be inaccessible, at least in the eyes of many members of the forces.

[Stéphanie Chouinard]

The way it was interpreted in 2018, the tribunal would really have been used to deal with problem and systemic cases. It wasn't going to be one person versus another, but rather versus the system in a broader sense.

When we talk about official language complaints in the Canadian Armed Forces, much like other types of complaints, one issue is that it's a small community. Even if the process is anonymous, it's possible to identify the individual who filed the complaint. At that point, it may be seen as insubordination and there would be reprisals. As Mr. Sauvé said, it can be quite an issue when you're moving up the ladder in your career. You don't want to look like the troublemaker or the killjoy. It discourages the person who is in the forces and would like to file a complaint because they have not had access to the services to which they are entitled.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you, Mr. Savard‑Tremblay and Ms. Chouinard.

We'll go over to Mr. Bezan for five minutes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for their participation and their service to Canada.

I want to start my questions by following up on the questions Ms. Gallant asked Madam Le Scelleur.

You mentioned how you were denied service in French when you came back and sought treatment for PTSD. When we look at the problems with Bill C-11, if there is a charge that happens in Canada—if you were on exercises and training in western Canada, say, out in Wainwright and the charges are laid there—Bill C-11's original intent before the amendments came in, which we will start debating tomorrow in the House, said you would be put in the civilian courts in Alberta, which may not provide you with services in French.

Do you see that as problematic? Is that one of the reasons that we need to have a choice in determining which system best suits your personal needs in dealing with military sexual misconduct?

[Capt (Ret'd) Hélène Le Scelleur]

I totally agree that we should have the choice. As I said before, when we're talking about really specific things related to trauma or sensitive issues, I don't think I would be doing it in my second language, because when you're vulnerable, you don't have access to all of the vocabulary you would normally have.

I would rather have the option of choosing the military way to make sure that I am going to have services in French, instead of the example you provided of staying in Alberta and having my case dealt with there when I'm from Quebec.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Within the military justice system, you would be given the option of whether or not you have access to both the judge advocate general's office and your victim liaison officer. You would be able to choose someone who is proficient in French to ensure that you get the best representation possible.

[Capt (Ret'd) Hélène Le Scelleur]

Again, on paper, we're saying all services are bilingual. I guess I would receive some service in French, but is that really the case? I'm not sure.

Again, can we think about an option in Alberta where I would receive service in French? Is that something that is going to be offered to the person? I'm not sure. For one, is it available? It's a problem, for sure.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

It is for sure, and I appreciate that. I appreciate your testimony today and what you did for Bill C-11 in bringing your experiences forward.

Let's talk a bit about functionality. This question will be for you, Lieutenant-General Maisonneuve, because I believe you've had a chance to look at the new Canadian Army restructuring proposed by Lieutenant-General Michael Wright in “Inflection Point 2025”.

They are going to be talking about a restructuring and reorganization of divisions. The reserve units, in particular, are all going to be under one division and function as a Canadian land force. We have the more expeditionary forces in a secondary division, which will include groups like the Van Doos as a brigade being added into the overall structure, along with the PPCLI and the Royal Canadian Regiment, the RCRs.

How is that going to impact operationality? How will that impact the francophone soldiers who are serving in those units?

[LGen (Ret'd) Michel Maisonneuve]

I believe it can work.

First of all, let's look at the regular force. In the regular force, there are three brigades currently: in Valcartier, in Petawawa and in Edmonton. The one in Valcartier is the francophone brigade. Obviously, it will remain francophone, but the point is that one commander will command all three brigades and that commander will need to have staff who are able to work in French and English. Everything will have to be bilingual to ensure that both the English brigades and the francophone brigades get their orders in their language.

As far as the reserves go, I would say that's a bit more difficult. As Hélène said, there is a difference between francophone soldiers and anglophone soldiers. I've commanded both. We could talk about what those differences are, but it has to be recognized that there are differences.

In the reserves, they also have a huge cultural identity. The reserves in Quebec do their own thing, and the reserves outside.... I would say the reserves are probably the groups that are more culturally identifiable by province. We're talking about, I think, 12 or 13 reserve brigades across the country. All of those are going to come under one division commander, who I believe will be in Montreal. He or she is going to have a heck of a challenge commanding all of those reserve brigades.

Again, because the division will command francophone and anglophone brigades and units, everything will have to be produced bilingually, certainly at that level, to get it down to the brigade, which will then, if it's a francophone brigade, pass on orders in that language. It's going to have an impact and it will be something that has to be recognized immediately to ensure that the staff at the division level are able to work in either language.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

You would suggest, then, that we'd be moving more towards a bilingual service, especially at the leadership level and the non-commissioned officer level. With the way things are getting restructured, they will really need to be proficient in both official languages to ensure that we have that consistent delivery of service across the armed forces—or do we look at what they do in the navy?

The HMCS Ville de Québec is a fully francophone frigate. We know the HMCS Montréal is supposed to be bilingual, and the rest of them are mainly anglophone. I guess the air force tends to be more bilingual than any of the other ones.

Do you have any comments on that? Are we looking at three new services?

[LGen (Ret'd) Michel Maisonneuve]

My sense is, actually.... First of all, I think at the division level, there will need to be the ability in both languages—bilingual, no question—so that they can serve the brigades at the lower level in their language.

You say the navy has a francophone ship. My experience with the navy is that it's the furthest behind as far as bilingualism goes. I would say the air force is also probably quite a way behind, but you'd have to ask the commander of the air force and the commander of the navy those questions. I have knowledge because I have a boy serving in the navy.

It's going to be important to ensure, certainly at the divisional level, that those folks are bilingual.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you very much. That's it. It's been over eight minutes already.

You went over by quite a bit, but I allowed it to have a great and vibrant discussion.

Mr. Watchorn, it's over to you.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Thank you again, Mr. Chair.

I want to swing back to culture change.

We talked about General Carignan. Last week, we met with official languages co-champions, including Major‑General Martin Gros‑Jean. He and Geneviève Binet, who is the assistant deputy minister of public affairs, were specifically assigned to effect culture change in the area of official languages.

Mr. Sauvé, if you had to guide these two co-champions, what would be the first recommendations you would give them to bring about this culture change?

[Eric Sauvé]

I know Major‑General Gros‑Jean very well. He's a friend of mine. I can't see myself guiding him at all, because he's very competent.

That said, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, the organizational culture is very deeply rooted. Culture is like an iceberg: There's what you see and there's what you can't see underneath. It takes a long time to change.

What's unique about the military realm is that things often change much more quickly than in other realms. For example, when we allow long hair, blue hair or painted nails, some people don't like it, but they follow orders. This is an example of a culture that is changing very quickly.

Again, there are struggles or friction underneath, but in our military culture, which I was part of for a long time, there's a culture of following orders and whatever comes from on high. As I mentioned, when you ask for quotas or bilingualism ratings, among other things, things change, and the culture follows afterwards. It's not the other way around. You can't change the culture first; that takes too long. You have to change the requests that come from above, and then the culture will follow suit.

I witnessed it, because I did serve in the forces for 22 years. I've seen the culture change. In particular, there is more openness towards the people we command. Culture takes time to change, but we need leaders to lead by example.

I'd like to mention one thing with regard to General Carignan. They said she is a francophone woman, but they forgot to mention her career as a combat engineer and the fact that she's also the mother of four children. She's very qualified for her position.

I have an Australian friend at home who is a lieutenant-colonel. In Australia, a woman is commander of the army. She's fully qualified for her position.

It's important to have examples like that of people who have earned their position and who have a different take on leadership.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Ms. Le Scelleur, what would you recommend to the co-champions?

[Capt (Ret'd) Hélène Le Scelleur]

At this point, I think it's a question of accountability. New directives are being issued, but to what extent are they going to be checked to see if they are being followed and what impact they have? In my opinion, clearly, conducting analyses and requesting that data be released every year on the career trajectory of francophones and anglophones could be the first thing to do to assess where we stand each year.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Mr. Maisonneuve, I'll ask you the same question.

[LGen (Ret'd) Michel Maisonneuve]

The instruction I would give would be to give a kick in the rear end.