Evidence of meeting #4 for National Defence in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ombudsperson.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Baril  Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman
Hynes  Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman

The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa

I call the meeting to order.

This is meeting number four of the House of Commons Standing Committee on National Defence. Pursuant to the motion adopted on September 16, the committee is meeting to receive briefings by the National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman and the sexual misconduct support and resource centre.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Before we continue, I would ask all in-person participants to consult the guidelines written on the cards on the table. These measures are in place to help prevent audio and feedback incidents and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters. You will notice a QR code in front of you, which links to an awareness video for you to be apprised and aware of the issues.

I'd like to make a few comments before the briefings for the benefit of the witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic. Please mute yourself when you're not speaking. For those on Zoom, at the bottom of your screen, you can select the appropriate channel for interpretation—floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

Just as a reminder, all comments should be addressed through the chair. For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can. We appreciate your patience and understanding in this regard.

The agenda today will be a public briefing from the National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman. We will go in camera for the next panel, which will be with the sexual misconduct support and resource centre. Then, if I may, I'd like to save an additional 10 minutes for other business in camera to manage a few issues that are before us. I recognize that some issues have developed.

Mr. James Bezan, go ahead.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Mr. Chair, earlier today you tabled in the House the reports from the previous session into this Parliament. Usually, it is the courtesy of the chair or the clerk to contact the opposition members who had supplemental reports to table them at the same time that the reports are tabled. That was not extended to our side.

I just want to put it on notice that we want to make sure that the parliamentary rules are followed, that our rights as members are respected and that when you table reports in the future, we get ample notice that you are going to table them so that we can be in the chamber to respond with our own supplemental comments, if and so deemed necessary.

The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa

Thank you, Mr. Bezan.

He makes a valid point. I was unaware. I mean, we had the option of doing it today; Wednesday, when we're going to be in Petawawa; or Thursday, which may not make available...so I chose to do it as soon as possible.

I have referred to the protocol, and the clerk advises that you should have had that courtesy afforded to you. I apologize for not having done that. I was, as I said, not aware of that protocol, but I'm not going to lay blame. I'm going to take responsibility, sir. We'll proceed to do it properly as we go forward.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON

Three strikes and you're out.

Voices

Oh, oh!

The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa

All right.

I would now like to welcome the witnesses. We have Mario Baril, the ombudsman, and Robyn Hynes, the director general of operations.

Mr. Baril, you have five minutes to make your opening statement.

Mario Baril Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, esteemed committee members. Thank you for the invitation to appear before this important parliamentary committee. I understand there is a long-standing history of engagement between this committee and the office of the ombudsman, spanning over the last 27 years.

I am joined today by my director general, Robyn Hynes.

It is truly an honour to serve as the ombudsman for the Canadian Armed Forces and the Department of National Defence. This Sunday I attended the Canadian army run in Ottawa, and I felt so proud of the defence team.

My mandate is clear. It is to contribute to substantial and long-lasting improvements to the defence community. My appointment took effect on July 2 of this year. I bring with me 28 years of experience, including 18 years as an executive in the public service of Canada. Over the years, I’ve had the privilege of advising deputy ministers as chief of staff at Public Services and Procurement Canada and at the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat, specifically within the office of the chief human resources officer. I’ve also provided strategic and business communications advice to ministers' offices.

For the past seven years, I’ve served as an organizational ombudsman, first at Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada, and then as mental health ombudsman at Public Services and Procurement Canada. Through these experiences, I’ve seen first-hand the growing need for psychologically safe mechanisms to address workplace concerns without fear of reprisal. That is the value proposition of any ombudsman's office, and in this case, it's to offer a trusted and confidential space where CAF members, their families, rangers, cadets, DND employees, staff of the NPF, and now, Canadian Coast Guard members can share their lived experiences.

In addition to my ombudsman experience, I hold accreditations in mediation, workplace mental health, executive leadership coaching, workplace assessments and arbitration.

My goal is clear: to ensure every constituent feels heard, and that our investigations are evidence-based, our recommendations are actionable, and our follow-up is consistent.

Since assuming this role, I’ve spent my initial months reviewing past reports, meeting with senior leadership, and listening to the defence community. This has helped shape my priorities.

First and foremost, there is visibility. Beginning in January, I plan to visit bases and wings across the country to hear directly from constituents, identify emerging issues, raise them with the appropriate authorities and develop actionable recommendations, where appropriate. Our first visits are already being planned for CFB Trenton and CFB Petawawa.

From my initial meetings and readings, I've noted several common themes and challenges impacting the defence community: delays and barriers in the recruitment process; low retention rates; lack of availability, accessibility and affordability of housing; family strain from postings and separation; staff shortages in health services, leading to inconsistent access to physical and mental health care; a fragmented transition from military to civilian life; and continued reports of harassment, racism and discrimination.

We are also paying close attention to several emerging areas that will be important to this committee in the coming months. These include, for example, the increasing reliance on the reserve force despite persistent challenges with pay, benefits and employer support; the growing role of the Canadian Rangers in northern sovereignty, while many still face equipment and support shortfalls; the impact of new compensation measures and whether they meaningfully address the financial pressures members are facing; the strain on infrastructure such as housing, medical care and training facilities, if recruitment targets are achieved without matching support; and the transition of the Canadian Coast Guard to DND, an expansion that will add approximately 7,000 employees to our constituent base.

Ombudsman offices serve as a vital check and balance, or safety valve, in how employees are treated under policies and mechanisms such as grievances and harassment complaints. Their importance has been recognized internationally, including by the United Nations, which endorsed the Venice principles in 2020 and 2024. These principles affirm independence, objectivity and transparency as global standards—and, I should say, gold standards—for ombudsman institutions, cornerstones for advancing good governance, oversight and accountability. It is within this global context that I remain keenly engaged in the review of the National Defence Act and, in particular, recommendation 103, which directly concerns the independence of our office.

In closing, I want to acknowledge the exceptional work of our Canadian Armed Forces members and their families—both at home and abroad. Their recent efforts in combatting wildfires across the country exemplify their unwavering commitment to service.

Thank you once again for the opportunity to appear before you today. I look forward to working collaboratively with this committee to advance and strengthen systems.

I would be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa

I'll proceed now with questions.

Thank you for your opening remarks.

Mr. Bezan, you have six minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to congratulate you, Mr. Baril, on becoming our new national defence and Canadian Armed Forces ombudsman. You have some big shoes to fill. We had Gregory Lick, who did an amazing job, and before him, there was Gary Walbourne and all the others before him. Also, you have Robyn Hynes sitting right beside you, who did an amazing job filling in as the interim ombud, and I can tell you that she leads a very strong team in support of what they do.

I know there have been some budget cuts in the past that have affected your office. Have you looked at the budget? How is it, overall, going to impact the work that you do?

3:50 p.m.

Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman

Mario Baril

Thank you for the question.

This is such a good question because I've been in this position now for almost 90 days, and this is obviously one of the first questions of interest to me: Do we have capacity within the ombud's office to be able to deliver on our mandate?

I would say that most of my management meetings have been about the pressures we're facing, how we're going to address these pressures and how we reallocate resources internally to be able to cope with this increased demand. For example, in my opening remarks, I did speak to the fact that we have the Canadian Coast Guard joining us now, and we also have the reconstitution measures—

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Just to be clear on that—the Coast Guard joining the national defence team—do the members of the Coast Guard now report in to you as ombudsman if they have any issues?

3:55 p.m.

Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman

Mario Baril

Absolutely, yes.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Has there been any adjustment to your budget to accommodate for that?

3:55 p.m.

Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

There's $9 billion that was promised in the supplemental estimates, yet at the same time, you haven't seen an increase in the budget for the ombudsman to take on this extra responsibility.

3:55 p.m.

Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman

Mario Baril

Not at all.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Okay.

I appreciate that you have only been on the job for 90 days and that you come with quite a bit of experience in the public service, including being an ombudsman in other departments such as PSPC. What have you been doing over the last 90 days to get yourself familiar with how those in national defence and the Canadian Armed Forces function with the roles and responsibilities they have and the stresses that are built into the amazing work they do?

3:55 p.m.

Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman

Mario Baril

Thank you for the question.

I think the most important part of my job in the last 90 days was not only to read all of the documentation that is obviously on the public record, but also to get briefings with senior officials within the department so that I could get a feel for what the issues are. For example, in terms of that new compensation package, I was briefed a couple of days prior so that I would understand the goal and the purpose of establishing this new compensation package.

I did meet with the vice-chief of the defence staff, chief military personnel, the deputy minister, the associate deputy minister and, as of last week, the Minister of National Defence. All of these briefings allowed me to get a better feel, but I also intend to quickly get on the ground. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, it will be important for me to be on the ground, because in my experience in the last seven years as ombudsman, you cannot do this job properly if you don't hear, in a confidential setting, what the issues are that our members are facing.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Are you planning to visit bases across the country and hold town halls and/or private meetings with members as you're travelling?

3:55 p.m.

Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman

Mario Baril

Absolutely.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

That's awesome. I'm glad to hear that. The office of the ombudsman has put together great recommendations and reports year in and year out. Are you currently working on any reports to bring to Parliament so that we can have you back to talk about some of the issues you're researching right now?

3:55 p.m.

Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman

Mario Baril

Absolutely. I'll mention what we're doing right now. I was happy that Robyn and the team got me up to speed with the latest report, which we're still drafting. It is a review of former recommendations dating back, I would say, 10 years. These were recommendations that applied to the reserve force and for which we haven't seen much progress. For us to be able to capture progress from an ombudsman's perspective, we need to see how many recommendations we made to the department or the Canadian Armed Forces and how many were accepted, but also whether we have made progress on them. The purpose of that next report, which we intend to complete in the fall, would be precisely that.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

You guys actually did a systemic review in 2025, and that one was tabled. We now know that the Canadian Army is restructuring and that reorganization includes the Canada sovereignty force, which is the reserves. That would be very timely.

You're saying it's just on the reserves, but how about all the recommendations that were made? We know the office did, as you mentioned in your remarks, a housing review. We're short 6,700 residential housing units right now for those who are serving, never mind the stresses on those who are buying in the marketplace. There have been changes to the post living differential allowance that has undermined even the raises that they're getting now. Some people are bringing home less than what they were before. How are you going to address those issues going forward?

3:55 p.m.

Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman

Mario Baril

Part of my plan is to do a series of strategic planning sessions with my management team, but also with investigators within our office so we can get really up to speed with all of these recommendations.

I will turn it over to Robyn to explain in more detail—