Evidence of meeting #4 for National Defence in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ombudsperson.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa
If I may, we're going to defer that one and go to another questioner, James. We can come back to it.
We're going over to you, Ms. Lapointe, for six minutes.
Liberal
Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you for appearing before the committee today. We've noticed that recent reviews have noted confusion around definitions of misconduct. From your perspective, how does clarity in definitions affect survivors' confidence in seeking help?
Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman
Thank you for your question.
It is crucial to define terms clearly. When people don't fully understand definitions, it's difficult to provide them with the appropriate services.
An example comes to mind from my previous role as an organizational ombudsperson. When people don't fully understand the definition of a term, such as “harassment”, they can obviously raise that term for the wrong reasons. In our opinion, understanding definitions is extremely important. One of the office of the ombudsperson's areas of focus is education. We put a lot of effort into publishing the correct definitions on our website to ensure that terms are understood correctly.
Liberal
Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON
The new “Addressing Wrongful Behaviours” annual report is absolutely a step forward towards creating more transparency. How can this type of reporting be made more useful to survivors and to those who are working on prevention?
Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman
I will turn it over to you, Robyn.
Robyn Hynes Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman
That's a great question. As the ombudsman alluded to before, having information readily available to people so they can better understand any supports that might be available to them, I think, is really good, so they can make informed decisions. I know the SMSRC is coming to the table afterwards as well, and I would expect that they'll have quite a bit to say on this topic, given their mandate.
Liberal
Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON
I would expect that culture change is often much harder to measure than policy changes. From your vantage point, what progress is most meaningful and what work still lies ahead around that?
Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman
From a culture change perspective, I think the department has undertaken a number of really great initiatives in terms of updating the website and which initiatives they've moved forward on. I think it's too early to tell what the outcomes of some of those initiatives are going to be, because they haven't been in place for a long time.
I know, for the external monitor report, there's going to be another report coming in the fall, and we're monitoring that closely to see what comes out of that as well.
Liberal
Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON
In looking broadly across all the feedback you've received, what is the one area that you feel deserves urgent attention to improve the trust and safety for survivors?
Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman
This is a very good question. In my experience as an ombud for the last seven years—an organizational ombudsman, which is a bit different from a classical ombudsman—I think that psychological safety, creating a space where people can tell their true lived experience, is critical to any ombudsman's office. In the past, during my career, I often referred to the national standard for psychological health and safety in the workplace, in which there are 13 psychosocial factors.
In a nutshell, what we have to remember is this: How do we have an internal mechanism, within a department or organization, that will allow people to feel safe? If we don't have that, we don't hit the mark, basically.
Liberal
Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON
It's becoming evident that access to services continues to be a central issue. What are the best practices that could be implemented, using what we've learned about reaching survivors, especially those in remote, francophone or indigenous communities?
Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman
We've seen quite a few positive advancements in terms of telehealth and services that can be available to people and reach them wherever and whenever they need them. I think that's a start to getting there, because, as you noted—and we noted in some of our reports about the Canadian Rangers, for example—in remote communities across this country it can be very difficult to access the services that people need in a timely way.
Liberal
Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON
In your opening comments, you talked about serving as a check and balance, or as a safety balance. How do you achieve that?
Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman
That's the most beautiful challenge of any ombudsman: How do you communicate in a way that makes people feel that what we're saying is true? How do we create a mechanism so that people will say, “If I go through this mechanism, I will feel that I can tell my true story”?
That's why I've been referring to the independence of this office and the Venice principles. The Venice principles are, basically, this: How do we measure all of the activities within an ombudman's office so that people feel the independence, impartiality and confidentiality, as well as our ability to deliver impartiality and fairness to our constituents? For me, this is the foundational piece that is non-negotiable. If you don't have that, people will not use the channel.
Liberal
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Actually, it's fitting that the last topic discussed in the last exchange was impartiality.
Although I heard what you said, I would like to ask you the following question.
Given that you report directly to the minister, what measures are in place to ensure confidentiality and prevent political interference and pressure?
Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman
I am really drawing on my professional experience of the past seven years.
Previously, I reported to a deputy minister's office.
In my opinion, the most important part is to let the person you report to know that these standards are non-negotiable.
Throughout my career as an ombudsperson, I have never been asked to reveal names or told which side I should take. For me, that is a non-negotiable standard.
Whether you report to a minister or to anyone else, the same principles of impartiality and independence must apply. I will always defend them.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC
Please understand that my question is not personal in any way. I am not questioning your integrity. That is not the issue, of course.
I was wondering if something could be done at the institutional level to ensure that there is a clear boundary.
Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman
Absolutely. In the office of the ombudsperson's standards of practice, we often see the term “at arm's length.” All decisions made in my office are free from interference.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC
If I understand your operating procedures correctly, you begin your investigations after receiving complaints, but you cannot launch your own investigations based on a suspicion you may have, in other words.
Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman
I’m glad you asked me that question, because the directive that created the office of the ombudsperson 27 years ago includes a provision that allows the ombudsperson to initiate his or her own investigations based on the information he receives. I think that gives the office of the ombudsperson a broad mandate.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC
Have you ever invoked this provision, or have you only investigated cases based on complaints received?
Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman
As far as I’m concerned, given that I’ve only been in this position for 84 days, I have not done this yet.
Robyn, you may have experienced the ombudsman's office doing its own investigation based on its own motion.
Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman
We almost exclusively do investigations based on our own motions. The minister has the ability to ask us to look into a particular area should he wish us to do so, but in the 11 years that I've been with the office, that has only happened one time. All the other investigations we have done, we have done based on our own motions. We will inform the minister, the department and the other relevant authorities that we're going to be launching an investigation, but we don't need to ask permission to do so.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC
Does this mean that very few investigations are carried out as a result of complaints? Can we say that there is still a culture of silence that means that, despite the promise of confidentiality, the natural reflex to think about filing a complaint is not present?